X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:24:34 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.62] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4648899 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:23:35 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.62; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qAuB94TA3nhMBnx1inTGhfr5kRWbP7rBmtfjBu5EGfLrBOSeVvsCOxX/HvnQV1xe; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [216.57.118.85] (helo=[192.168.1.103]) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PUqwN-0005jt-MH for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:23:00 -0500 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-105-1054766239 Subject: Re: [LML] JPI X-Original-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:22:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940138d94f8aad1198c1ce9f44db4c58e23350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.57.118.85 --Apple-Mail-105-1054766239 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Jim, I think you need to decide what is important to you and decide = which vendor can provide it. As far as I can see, JPI is a marketing = company, not an engineering company. That said, they have collected = pretty much all the right features in their edm700 unit, for what it is, = and mine worked great in my cessna for 10 years. So they nailed it on = features and reliability. Other things I need: - my data please. I got off the train when they stated that I had to = pay them money to get the data collected by the instrument I already = paid for. I guess they changed their mind now but I'm not going back. - answer the phone courteously and be helpful. oops. EI is sort of the other end. About engineering things the way they = think they should be. Too bad if it's not what you wanted. I know = because I just bought their edm700 equivalent. I had to buy 3 different = boxes to get the job done. But they were SUPER helpful on pre-sales = consultation. That said, the mvp-50, their more modern unit, is = awesome, reliable, they answer the phone, and they don't engage in shady = marketing tactics. Of the two I'll take EI. Neither of the two is going to make you an engine management expert, but = I don't think you need that from them. On Dec 20, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Jim Nordin wrote: > I=92ve really hesitated sending this note afraid my lack of knowledge = may be demonstrated. But what the hey =85 here =91tis. > =20 > Among other things, JPI continues to espouse a wife=92s tale on =93shock= cooling=94. I=92ve asked many times for them to provide empirical data = to support their claim. Apparently no empirical data exists and that = translates to rumor or worse. I was going to buy their product but = changed my mind when I learned they sell products by scaring people = about events that don=92t happen. =46rom their website: > =20 > =93An old and common misconception that other manufacturers of EGT = monitors promote is that it is not necessary to know the exact exhaust = gas temperatures of your aircraft's engine. However, if you have read = recent reports, shock cooling can be catastrophic! The EDM alerts the = pilot of those conditions which are most vital to the maintenance of = well performing engine. The value in measuring EGT lies in finding the = ideal ratio of fuel to air that results in complete combustion, and in = long-term trend monitoring.=94 > =20 > What reports? What data? Catastrophic? How is shock cooling associated = to EGT? Wouldn=92t that be CHT? I understand =85 not necessarily. > Their claim is cooling by sudden reduction in throttle will/could = cause a catastrophic event. What is the event? Cracked head, cylinder? = Driving the engine? Sticking valves? Wouldn=92t flying into rain or = worse be an event you could expect sudden cooling to cause major damage? = Or how about turning off the ignition? =46rom making plenty heat to = making none. Quick cool down (>100=BAF/minute) would be equal to shock = cooling. This wife=92s tale continues to be over my head. If I=92m not = mistaken, GAMI says shock cooling is a myth. Wouldn=92t they know? = Pointing to a manufacturer=92s prohibited operating regime (pull the = throttle to idle at altitude), legitimate or not, is no justification to = make instruments that prevent you from operating there. Do the tests = before you sell instruments that prevent you from doing something that = doesn=92t matter. Well, the idea of =93if it=92s good enough for = Lycoming and Continental, it=92s good enough for me=94 just doesn=92t = sell today. CYA is a big business justification. > =20 > So this is perpetuating manufactures=92 CYA on operating under any = circumstance that might =96 MIGHT =96 cause a warranty issue. LOP for = example! > http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182883-1.html > =20 > I=92m not saying their instruments are not quality. I=92m satisfied = they are good quality. They likely report accurately. However, measuring = something and making unsubstantiated claims as to what the measurements = mean is not a responsible way to sell a product. > =20 > JPI? I think they=92re reaching and with no limb to grab (competition = is fierce) they may claim things with their instruments that are = useless. You want to measure it and do something about the measurement? = Fine by me. But gee whiz, airplane stuff is already so expensive =85 why = spend it on things that don=92t matter? That=92s not a rhetorical = question. Educate me. > Jim > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 6:10 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: VM 1000 > =20 > technical readers press delete. I just wanted to say I have been so = excited with jpi ever since they decided they owned my data that I used = the edm700 that came with my project to monitor temperatures around the = cowling and bleep if something gets too hot. > =20 > the little man in there is not happy. He keeps saying "you = disconnected my probe". > =20 > On Dec 16, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Janie & Ed Smith wrote: >=20 >=20 > In regards to the question about the VM 1000, in it's day it was a = fine piece of equipment. But it's outdated and hard to get repaired or = support. It is also extremely limited in it's functionality > I would urge you to look at some of the newer engine monitors. In fact = most of the EFIS companies have an engine monitor integral in the unit. = A couple to look at would be Dynon or Advanced flight systems. There is = also the MVP -50 which is a stand alone but will display on some EFIS. >=20 > Jon=20 >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-105-1054766239 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Jim,   I think you need to decide what is = important to you and decide which vendor can provide it.  As far as = I can see, JPI is a marketing company, not an engineering company. =  That said, they have collected pretty much all the right features = in their edm700 unit, for what it is, and mine worked great in my cessna = for 10 years.   So they nailed it on features and reliability. =  Other things I need:
- my data please.   I got off the = train when they stated that I had to pay them money to get the data = collected by the instrument I already paid for.  I guess they = changed their mind now but I'm not going back.
- answer the = phone courteously and be helpful.   = oops.

EI is sort of the other end.   About = engineering things the way they think they should be.  Too bad if = it's not what you wanted.   I know because I just bought their = edm700 equivalent.  I had to buy 3 different boxes to get the job = done.   But they were SUPER helpful on pre-sales consultation. =  That said, the mvp-50, their more modern unit,  is awesome, = reliable, they answer the phone, and they don't engage in shady = marketing tactics.

Of the two I'll take = EI.

Neither of the two is going to make you an = engine management expert, but I don't think you need that from = them.

On Dec 20, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Jim Nordin = wrote:

I=92ve really = hesitated sending this note afraid my lack of knowledge may be = demonstrated. But what the hey =85 here =91tis.

 their website:

=93An old and common misconception that other = manufacturers of EGT monitors promote is that it is not necessary to = know the exact exhaust gas temperatures of your aircraft's engine. = However, if you have read recent reports, shock cooling can be = catastrophic! The EDM alerts the pilot of = those conditions which are most vital to the maintenance of well = performing engine. The value in measuring EGT lies in finding the ideal = ratio of fuel to air that results in complete combustion, and in = long-term trend monitoring.=94

What = reports? What data? Catastrophic? How is shock cooling associated to = EGT? Wouldn=92t that be CHT? I understand =85 not = necessarily.

So = this is perpetuating manufactures=92 CYA on operating under any = circumstance that might =96 MIGHT =96 cause a warranty issue. LOP for = example!

JPI? = I think they=92re reaching and with no limb to grab (competition is = fierce) they may claim things with their instruments that are useless. = You want to measure it and do something about the measurement? Fine by = me. But gee whiz, airplane stuff is already so expensive =85 why spend = it on things that don=92t matter? That=92s not a rhetorical question. = Educate me.

 

technical readers press delete. =  I just wanted to say I have been so excited with = jpi ever since they decided they owned my data that I used the edm700 = that came with my project to monitor temperatures around the cowling and = bleep if something gets too hot.

 

the little man in there is not happy.  He keeps saying "you = disconnected my probe".

 

On Dec 16, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Janie & Ed Smith = wrote:
In regards to the question = about the VM 1000,  in it's day it was a fine piece of equipment. = But it's outdated and hard to get repaired or support. It is also = extremely limited in it's functionality
I would urge you to look at = some of the newer engine monitors. In fact most of the EFIS companies = have an engine monitor integral in the unit. A couple to look at would = be Dynon or Advanced flight systems. There is also the MVP -50 which is = a stand alone but will display on some EFIS.

Jon 

<= /div>