X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:22:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4365042 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:19:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.96; envelope-from=j.hafen@comcast.net Received: from omta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52]) by qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id YcPw1e00217UAYkA9gJf3u; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:18:39 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.4] ([24.17.111.171]) by omta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id YgJd1e00H3hvfg88ZgJegK; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:18:38 +0000 From: John Hafen Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-63-329689850 Subject: Glass Panel Suggestions? X-Original-Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:18:36 -0700 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <9A9AAE47-6173-41F1-BA74-D6D305EF47D0@comcast.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) --Apple-Mail-63-329689850 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On one of my first solo take-offs after "finishing" my IVP, I had a = GADAHARS failure, on climb-out. =20 I was VFR and the weather was good, so it wasn't an extreme emergency, = but I was pretty happy I had installed full size airspeed, attitude and = altitude steam gages to back up my Cheltons. A new software update quickly fixed the GADAHARS which has performed = flawlessly for the last 250 hours. But I'm still happy to have the = backup gages. My steam gage attitude indicator does not have an internal battery = backup. If the recession ever ends, I may look into replacing that unit = with one that has a battery backup. John Hafen IVP 413AJ On Jun 18, 2010, at 1:00 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: > Stan, > =20 > Were it not for the mechanical backup guages I installed in my IVP we = would not be having this conversation. If you are only concerned about = lightning you are only looking at a small portion of the hazard. Brent = Regan has posted extensively on this subject-- his remarks are worth = their weight in gold. > =20 > Jeff > It would be=20 > interesting to know how many pilots flying dual EFIS panels with = backup gauges=20 > were forced to rely on the gauges at some point.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Fields > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Thu, Jun 17, 2010 5:07 am > Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Glass Panel Suggestions? >=20 > Hello Tom, >=20 > I was afraid someone would say that. Obviously looking at all the = panels in our=20 > fleet, most have steam gauges as primary or backup. While I don't = intend to=20 > joust with Thor, it may be unavoidable some day. It may not be = possible to=20 > isolate all of the electronics from a lightning event but I'd hoped = the state of=20 > the art had advanced enough to make that risk acceptably small. It = would be=20 > interesting to know how many pilots flying dual EFIS panels with = backup gauges=20 > were forced to rely on the gauges at some point.=20 >=20 > Building electronic redundancy gobbles up panel space but perhaps with = a little=20 > shuffling I can fit in a 3 pack - even with a small Legacy panel.=20 >=20 > Stan >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Tom=20 > Thibault > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:58 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Glass Panel Suggestions? >=20 > Stan, >=20 > You wrote "I am an electrical engineer and worked for 8 years at = Cessna as an=20 > instrumentation engineer". You also said "I want to eliminate "steam = gages" but=20 > want equivalent electronic redundancy." >=20 > Please elaborate on your reasoning for elimination of steam gauges. = It seems=20 > that current generation GA certified airplanes still include steam = backup. For=20 > example, the Corvalis TT and Mooney Ovation web sites still shows = airspeed,=20 > attitude, altitude steam gauges right beside the G1000 equipped = panels. >=20 > Are you planning VFR only, for example? >=20 > For me, who went through the same decision process for an IFR solution = in a 360=20 > model, the answer came out retain the steam. The considerations also = included a=20 > history of prior p-static upsets of electronics in the cockpit when = flying IFR=20 > through rain. Of course, 360s are mostly E-glass, so static wicks to = drain the=20 > build up do not work, where they should on your Legacy. Regardless, I = believe=20 > in relying on multiple types of physics for flight instruments. = Pretty sure it=20 > was Brent Reagan who recommended that first here in the mail list. >=20 > In the event of p-static or lighting events, ALL the electronics could = be taken=20 > out, no matter how isolated, redundant, or battery backed up they may = be. In=20 > that event, at least basic aircraft control info would still be = available and a=20 > hand held comm/nav (not connected to any systems on the ship) could = then be used=20 > to communicate and navigate out of the current instrument conditions. >=20 > Hopefully a reasoned, non-emotional, discussion will ensue. >=20 > Tom Thibault >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html >=20 >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --Apple-Mail-63-329689850 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = one of my first solo take-offs after "finishing" my IVP, I had a = GADAHARS failure, on climb-out.  

I was VFR and = the weather was good, so it wasn't an extreme emergency, but I was = pretty happy I had installed full size airspeed, attitude and altitude = steam gages to back up my Cheltons.

A new = software update quickly fixed the GADAHARS which has performed = flawlessly for the last 250 hours.  But I'm still happy to have the = backup gages.

My steam gage attitude indicator = does not have an internal battery backup.  If the recession ever = ends, I may look into replacing that unit with one that has a battery = backup.

John Hafen
IVP = 413AJ


On Jun 18, 2010, at 1:00 = PM, vtailjeff@aol.com = wrote:

Stan,
 
Were it not for the mechanical backup guages I installed in my IVP = we would not be having this conversation. If you are only concerned = about lightning you are only looking at a small portion of the hazard. = Brent Regan has posted extensively on this subject-- his remarks are = worth their weight in gold.
 
Jeff
It would be=20
interesting to know how many pilots flying dual EFIS panels with backup =
gauges=20
were forced to rely on the gauges at some point. =




-----Original Message-----
From: Stan Fields <sdfields@austin.rr.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
= Sent: Thu, Jun 17, 2010 5:07 am
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Glass Panel Suggestions?

Hello Tom,

I was afraid someone would say that. Obviously looking at all the panels =
in our=20
fleet, most have steam gauges as primary or backup. While I don't intend =
to=20
joust with Thor, it may be unavoidable some day. It may not be possible =
to=20
isolate all of the electronics from a lightning event but I'd hoped the =
state of=20
the art had advanced enough to make that risk acceptably small. It would =
be=20
interesting to know how many pilots flying dual EFIS panels with backup =
gauges=20
were forced to rely on the gauges at some point.=20

Building electronic redundancy gobbles up panel space but perhaps with a =
little=20
shuffling I can fit in a 3 pack - even with a small Legacy panel.=20

Stan


-----Original Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] =
On Behalf Of Tom=20
Thibault
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:58 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Glass Panel Suggestions?

Stan,

You wrote "I am an electrical engineer and worked for 8 years at Cessna =
as an=20
instrumentation engineer".  You also said "I want to eliminate "steam =
gages" but=20
want equivalent electronic redundancy."

Please elaborate on your reasoning for elimination of steam gauges.  It =
seems=20
that current generation GA certified airplanes still include steam =
backup.  For=20
example, the Corvalis TT and Mooney Ovation web sites still shows =
airspeed,=20
attitude, altitude steam gauges right beside the G1000 equipped panels.

Are you planning VFR only, for example?

For me, who went through the same decision process for an IFR solution =
in a 360=20
model, the answer came out retain the steam.  The considerations also =
included a=20
history of prior p-static upsets of electronics in the cockpit when =
flying IFR=20
through rain.  Of course, 360s are mostly E-glass, so static wicks to =
drain the=20
build up do not work, where they should on your Legacy.  Regardless, I =
believe=20
in relying on multiple types of physics for flight instruments.  Pretty =
sure it=20
was Brent Reagan who recommended that first here in the mail list.

In the event of p-static or lighting events, ALL the electronics could =
be taken=20
out, no matter how isolated, redundant, or battery backed up they may =
be.  In=20
that event, at least basic aircraft control info would still be =
available and a=20
hand held comm/nav (not connected to any systems on the ship) could then =
be used=20
to communicate and navigate out of the current instrument conditions.

Hopefully a reasoned, non-emotional, discussion will ensue.

Tom Thibault

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For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=



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