Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #53917
From: Robert Pastusek <rpastusek@htii.com>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Prop and Glide considerations
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 19:34:34 -0500
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>

I’ve tested my IV-P (Continental TSIO 550 w/MT 4-blade) with the following results:

 

I cannot stop the prop rotation by shutting down the engine in flight—at least not down to my approach to stall speed. With the prop control all the way out and the engine at idle power, the RPM stabilizes around 600-650 RPM. Turning off the ignition has little, if any effect on the windmilling RPM. If you then push in the prop, the RPM increases. It might be possible to push it in very quickly and stall the air flow over the prop, causing it to actually stop, but I was not willing to abuse the equipment that much…a possible (more likely?) outcome would be an engine overspeed when the prop governor failed to compensate fast enough for the rapid spin-up—or a stall/spin when you suddenly add a heap of drag up front? I’ll leave that one for someone else to try…

 

My airplane descends at  450-600 FPM at 120 KIAS, depending on the gross weight. 450 FPM at approx 2800#, and 600 FPM at approx 3600#. RPM with the throttle idle and prop all the way out is approximately 700 RPM. I was surprised (probably should not have been!) that the weight had such an effect on descent rate. I used a 20:1 glide ratio to program my Chelton EFIS, and have consistently been able to pull back the power and RPM to the stops, turn toward an airfield from heading directly away, and successfully land without touching the power (at intermediate gross weights; not max). Although I’ve not used it in an emergency, it appears that the “glide range” display on the Chelton would be very useful—so I’ve taken some time to assure myself that it’s a good predictor of engine-out range. The techniques in the messages below for controlling descent when you have the airport made are all applicable.

 

Power-off glides for extended periods have some inherent risks, so I’d caution that you ask some advice before jumping into the bird and giving this a try. One thing you can do to test the glide setting/display on a Chelton system is to start with a power off/RPM min/appropriate airspeed glide from medium altitude toward the place of intended landing. If the glide ratio set in the Chelton is too large (e.g. 30:1), the predicted glide range will decrease—fall short of the airport—as you approach it. If it’s too small (e.g. 10:1) the predicted range circle will move beyond the airport as you head toward it. This glide ratio adjustment  technique doesn’t require that you descend all the way to the airport committed to land if the engine doesn’t respond. Just a thought…

 

Bob

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sky2high@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 2:37 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Prop and Glide considerations

 

Bill,

 

Thank God somebody actually tries this stuff (uh, somebody with your piloting skills).  Perhaps you are using Marvel Mystery Oil to reduce engine friction..........

 

Is your MT prop electric?  My understanding is that oil pressure managed props (non-feathering) would go to a flatter pitch as the pressure is diminished and the prop slows - perhaps the flatter pitch keeps the prop from actually stopping?.

 

I think I only suggested that those with a fixed pitch prop try to stop it (yes, a dangerous maneuver).  Of course there is no choice if the engine seized.  I haven't flown a fixed pitch prop airplane since 1998.  The fixed pitch prop Cozy MkIV flier I know said that there is a range for his airplane - a two bladed prop can be stopped at around 90+ Kts and will stay stopped until around 115+ Kts.  Of course it comes to a stop with the blades horizontal in the wing wash (ah, pushers).  He now has a three bladed prop and he doesn't know if it can be stopped.

 

Let's try this then - CS fliers have an option of pitch control and should know the descent rate at best glide for the extremes.  I would say that a stoppage from seizure would be some in between.  Fixed pitch fliers (and others) should know the rotten descent rate they get with the prop in cruise pitch and windmilling and use that for rule of thumb range estimates.  Uh, 1000 fpm at 5000 AGL = 5 minutes and at 120 KIAS that's 2 NM per minute - ergo <10 NM depending on the wind or about a 10 to 1 rate (distance to altitude).  Here is where GPS ground speed is useful.  In other words, at least know the worst case descent rate.

 

 Your final paragraph is "spot on" and there are many ways steepen the descent - wheels out, flaps down, prop to flat pitch and/or entering a slip.  Oh yeah, a 300 series slow-speed flaps-out slip can lead to the nose bobbing up and down.  As others have mentioned, gear up landings on a hard smooth surface don't need much "roll-out" - and note that it will turn away from the exhaust pipe side since the metal slides easier than glass (believe me, I know).

 

Do what ya can to know your airplane...

 

Scott

 

In a message dated 12/18/2009 9:20:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, n5zq@verizon.net writes:

Hiya Scott,

 

Good info on glide ratios. You advocate stopping the prop. In most cases, this would produce slightly less drag than a windmilling, but high angle (prop control pulled back) prop. Problem is, I don't think that it can be done in our planes. I know for sure that I can't do it in our 320...I've tried. With the engine shut down and prop back I've slowed to just above a stall and the prop just keeps going. I've got an MT prop which will go to a higher angle than most others, maybe this is why. Has anybody been able to stop a prop (assuming no engine damage and a non-feathering prop in any kind of Lancair?

 

My guess is that in an actual emergency, it would probably be best not to attempt it. Speaking for myself, I've got just so much concentration and the prop stopping maneuver would use up a bunch. When thinking about engine out procedures we always think about maximizing the glide. This is, of course, the proper thing to do to give you more time to think and plan. There are times, however when it is advantagious to MINIMIZE the glide ratio. Pushing in the still spinning prop will allow you to do this.

 

When I was an examiner I conducted hundreds of private and commercial flight tests always including a simulated forced landing.  Getting too high was just as common as a too low and the actual outcome would likely be worse. Having the ability to shove the prop forward gives you one more tool to modify your descent. That option is not available if the prop is stopped (the possible exception would be a feathering prop with an accumulator).

 

I agree with Bill Kennedy. Learn how YOUR airplane glides and practice simulated forced landings. In our 320 with the engine at idle and the prop full aft I get a descent rate down of 500 fpm at 110 kts. With the engine SHUT DOWN it's 900 fpm. My suggestion would be to learn what your airplane does with the engine actually shut down, obviously at high altitude, good weather, and over an airport with a long runway. Once you have that number, you can do your engine out practice with the engine at idle and the prop adjusted to the RPM that gives you the same rate of descent that you discovered in your shut down test. Your practice then should give you very realistic glide performance.

 

Bill Harrelson

N5ZQ 320 1,750 hrs

N6ZQ  IV under construction

Subscribe (FEED) Subscribe (DIGEST) Subscribe (INDEX) Unsubscribe Mail to Listmaster