X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:24:08 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com ([69.147.75.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with SMTP id 4002085 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:28:12 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.75.95; envelope-from=charliekohler@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 65018 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Dec 2009 12:27:37 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=e9zXofcCZ3QRpVFeScm4P3YmU8SQH8jMinmPYzxJWqGFNnwxfJ+zx8m0QsUntlmHW9gC9HoyU43in1rMGTIk5WxfMbzq9j9T4PMuT9w5SbRtWigq9iUGI8CABqqMfQmF9yoyEbljZsOkulqXYruwBmJaTCQlGKj30MfOAOV41qs=; X-Original-Message-ID: <600314.64271.qm@web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: CRTIm2kVM1mJwHySYU.d4bRTuTFad9ldjJpaXy4jm1bhtyS59dr2zZxSPkT4.eQrlQoctsAMwF0.CBWI8JnOVWEu_heHfQyLeEH.YTNDF1WdBjNJKOr.vZ7i9Zw6ecw2XEsX75QuOSHxUvj4t7MY2O6wEDGoDIOocU7dSwn1LIq0dnduul.dj87qKatDkevh6pACSGbvSkd.xeopPnkY_2WsjyZRYaiFsceVjJnMtvohj4808PH6Qq22h11D2Jc7tx6rer5TrAI3JOMW4yDRzOIE.srfCu6VTNgcsYMpUWh6AAZJmUzqdwUKWQauVjv5RB_b017MLBVB6FORsvr5sLb1apxTVVZCQFUfLXCQdN2gzBg4rW.1TAta7IMOxCI0ys_.rLGHls0FKFKFakFGQkePqojt.3gmfxLEYJ994bq_4m0j1K8ZtEf_wh2Jh6DTVM5ph2ZUmSQfUVO5DzvosklGPxr0Jm6uJjkm4Cwn.I0Al.aG.Zq6.2rqCGXN2SPfalmgfsIr Received: from [68.204.30.249] by web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 04:27:37 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/211.6 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: X-Original-Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 04:27:37 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Kohler Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Vne is NOT a meaningless number X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-262045994-1259929657=:64271" --0-262045994-1259929657=:64271 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did Sterling Ainsworth have the aft fuselage air conditioning holes?=0A=A0= =0ACharlie K.=0A=0ASee me on the web at =0Awww.Lancair-IV.com=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "vtailjeff@aol.com" =0ATo: lml@yahoo.com=0ASent: Fri, December 4, 2009 6:19:30 AM=0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Vne is NOT a meaningless number=0A=0AI concur with Skip'= s assessment. Vne is a limit just like G-- if you exceed the limits recomme= nded by Lancair you are a test pilot and the risk goes up dramatically. LOB= O does not endorse exceeding these limits. Our members are currently paying= the price of limited insurance coverage because of those Lancair pilots wh= o have exceeded their abilites and the limits of their aircraft. One IVP wa= s lost=A0in August 2005 after spending a week next to me at Oshkosh =A0(see= below for those of you who incorrectly believe that there are no Lancair a= ccidents involving this stuff) and the airframe failed above Vne near the p= redicted Vne value. Lynn Farnsworth has gone to great lengths to study the = issue, strengthen the airframe and reduce his risk. Most of the rest of us = have not. I applaud Lynn for his efforts and the methodolgy he has employed= . If you want to expand the envelope of your aircraft=A0then it will take s= ome dedicated engineering and redesign-- not simply stating "well Lance=A0over=A0designed it to begin with" wishful thinking. = There are many real smart people like Robert Wolf (who has a PhD in aero an= d over 30 years experience in the industry)=A0who have given you the benefi= t of their decades of experience --please listen to them and enjoy your Lan= cairs safely this holiday season and in the future.=0A=0A=0A=0ABest Regards= ,=0A=A0=0AJeff Edwards=0APresident, LOBO=0A=0A=0A=0AExcerpts from the Canad= ian report for Sterling Ainsworth's accident is as follows. =0A=0A"The Lanc= air IV design was subjected to computer analysis and static load testing, a= nd a full flutter test program was conducted. These tests showed that the t= ail section would fail first due to flutter at Mach=A00.57 followed by fail= ure of the wing flap assemblies at Mach=A00.6. During the descent the aircr= aft reached a calculated speed of 412=A0knots or Mach=A00.62."=0A=0AThe air= craft fuselage and left wing spar were located approximately eight nautical= miles (nm) southeast of Sundre, Alberta. The right wing, left wing skins, = and pieces of the tail section were located over a 1.3=A0nm debris field in= a line southwest of the main wreckage site. The pilot and passenger were f= atally injured.=0A1918:34 - aircraft descended through 17=A0330=A0feet at 1= 2=A0500=A0feet per minute; pitch attitude 36=BA=A0nose down; bank angle 66= =BA=A0right; speed 88=A0KIAS; climb power was still set=0A=0A1918:48 - airc= raft descended through 10=A0840=A0feet; speed KIAS=A0150 (Based on altitude= change, time, and ground speed, calculations show that the aircraft reache= d a peak velocity of 412=A0knots [Mach=A00.62] going through 11=A0000=A0fee= t)=0A=0A1919:12 - last data point recorded at 3870=A0feet; elevation of acc= ident site 3640=A0feet =0A=0A=091. At the time of the accident, the aircraf= t was 250 to 350 pounds over the recommended gross take-off weight, which i= ncreased the stall speed by approximately 17=A0knots. =0Afmi: =0Ahttp://www= .tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2005/a05w0160/a05w0160.asp=0A=0A= =A0=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Skip Slater =0ATo: lml=0ASent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 5:21 am=0ASubject: [LML] = Re: Vne is NOT a meaningless number=0A=0A=0A"One IVP was lost years ago whe= n it exceeded Vne."=0A=A0=0AGene Long's ES also broke up in flight when it = exceeded VNE during it's inexplicable descent from cruse altitude a year an= a half ago.=0A=A0=0AThe fact it this:=A0 No amount of pilot skill will sav= e a plane once flutter begins to break it apart.=A0 If you knowingly exceed= VNE, you are a test pilot and the only way you'll know you went too fast i= s as your plane is going down in pieces.=A0 Pilots who willfully ignore man= ufacturer established limitations are accidents looking for a place to happ= en.=A0 Pilots who brag about such exploits deserve a very=A0wide berth.=0A= =A0=0AI have to wonder what the instructors from HIPAT and LOBO would have = to say on this subject.=A0 If they're listening, I hope they'll chime in.= =0A=0ASkip Slater=A0 --0-262045994-1259929657=:64271 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Did Sterling Ainsworth have the aft fuselage air co= nditioning holes?
 
=0A
Charlie K.
=0A
 =0A
See me on the web at
=0A=0A 
=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "vtailjeff@aol.com" <vtailjeff@aol.com>
To: lml@yahoo.com
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 6:19:30 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Vne is NOT a meaningle= ss number

=0A
=0A
I concur with Skip's assessment. Vne is a= limit just like G-- if you exceed the limits recommended by Lancair you ar= e a test pilot and the risk goes up dramatically. LOBO does not endorse exc= eeding these limits. Our members are currently paying the price of limited = insurance coverage because of those Lancair pilots who have exceeded their = abilites and the limits of their aircraft. One IVP was lost in August = 2005 after spending a week next to me at Oshkosh  (see below for those= of you who incorrectly believe that there are no Lancair accidents involvi= ng this stuff) and the airframe failed above Vne near the predicted Vne val= ue. Lynn Farnsworth has gone to great lengths to study the issue, strengthe= n the airframe and reduce his risk. Most of the rest of us have not. I appl= aud Lynn for his efforts and the methodolgy he has employed. If you want to= expand the envelope of your aircraft then it will take some dedicated engineering and redesign-- not simply stating "well Lance&n= bsp;over designed it to begin with" wishful thinking. There are many r= eal smart people like Robert Wolf (who has a PhD in aero and over 30 years = experience in the industry) who have given you the benefit of their de= cades of experience --please listen to them and enjoy your Lancairs safe= ly this holiday season and in the future.
=0A
 =0A
=0A
 
=0A
Best Regards,=0A
 
=0A
Jeff Edwards
=0A
President, LOBO
=0A
 
=0A
 =0A
 
=0A
Excerpts from the Canadian report for Sterlin= g Ainsworth's accident is as follows.
=0A
 
=0A
"Th= e Lancair IV design was subjected to computer analysis and static load test= ing, and a full flutter test program was conducted. These tests showed that= the tail section would fail first due to flutter at Mach 0.57 followe= d by failure of the wing flap assemblies at Mach 0.6. During the desce= nt the aircraft reached a calculated speed of 412 knots or Mach 0= .62."
=0A
 
=0A
The aircraft fuselage and left wing = spar were located approximately eight nautical miles (nm) southeast of Sund= re, Alberta. The right wing, left wing skins, and pieces of the tail sectio= n were located over a 1.3 nm debris field in a line southwest of the m= ain wreckage site. The pilot and passenger were fatally injured.
=0A 
1918:34 - aircraft descended through 17 330 feet a= t 12 500 feet per minute; pitch attitude 36=BA nose down; ba= nk angle 66=BA right; speed 88 KIAS; climb power was still set
1918:48 - aircraft descended through 10 840 feet; speed KIAS=  150 (Based on altitude change, time, and ground speed, calculations s= how that the aircraft reached a peak velocity of 412 knots [Mach = 0.62] going through 11 000 feet)

1919:12 - last data point= recorded at 3870 feet; elevation of accident site 3640 feet =0A<= DIV> 
=0A
    =0A
  1. At the time of the accident, the aircraft was= 250 to 350 pounds over the recommended gross take-off weight, which increa= sed the stall speed by approximately 17 knots.
=0A
fmi:
=0A=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
 =0A

=
=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Slater <skipslater@verizon.n= et>
To: lml
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 5:21 am
Subject: [LML] Re: V= ne is NOT a meaningless number

=0A
=0A
"One IVP was = lost years ago when it exceeded Vne."
=0A
 
=0A
Gene Long= 's ES also broke up in flight when it exceeded VNE during it's inexplicable= descent from cruse altitude a year an a half ago.
=0A
 
=0A
The fact it this:  No amount of pilot skill will save a plane once= flutter begins to break it apart.  If you knowingly exceed VNE, you a= re a test pilot and the only way you'll know you went too fast is as your p= lane is going down in pieces.  Pilots who willfully ignore manufacture= r established limitations are accidents looking for a place to happen. = ; Pilots who brag about such exploits deserve a very wide berth.
=0A
 
=0A
I have to wonder what the instructors from HIPAT and= LOBO would have to say on this subject.  If they're listening, I hope= they'll chime in.
=0A
 
=0A
Skip Slater 
=0A
 
=0A
 
--0-262045994-1259929657=:64271--