X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:35:40 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com ([69.147.75.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with SMTP id 3826532 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:27:10 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.75.95; envelope-from=charliekohler@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 62728 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Aug 2009 16:26:32 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=22W7oZGFqxyQlmf3DBf4ccisDXzFx8h9TSz0h1PhxmecN6Q8ARy690y2yF583dFcpm+ucWjxkohwMhLsYFTuwDqvQKiXnSky/DX0Ath46WOUTQGjSZvZCPfh91DCH8MWbxktT1TeYwKpmCH9103qjMVpZ2AfKfm4vmUEycFjHW4=; X-Original-Message-ID: <85118.55796.qm@web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: mgiGz5EVM1mTRHMS6TiUkATgt_nJFnoYzZ8m8dSRzRkOC3Lk8dth0hEBQVYgLPB2t2rhhXLTj408.mLX_nM7hj3X2_CbtyyswIdvasnwJFMI0ZFGB9aarL9wKGCU0c.2yQUD2H.gjtsdun5zAHdyN2uWGQ0iKnrjcnGFUU1L_fD.pPvzRVqHbKtJNPCsejOJIQ_bGa4sC9HY0QRtV44UCNeD8KX_2AEs29YwvRswcu3Oud5JRQU3fTjumkz6aCe4GzsKAG9kZoxmdmc.Jq7JQqxE..XhJNc4iH7kPXgWIU3sKt9XX.Kg_KWscL1xwya8cK3uvNNeXr3scRttG_iZt6Q- Received: from [97.104.160.94] by web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:26:32 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1358.27 YahooMailWebService/0.7.338.2 References: X-Original-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:26:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Charlie Kohler Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Fuel Flow Issue Solved X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1221782554-1251390392=:55796" --0-1221782554-1251390392=:55796 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Bob=0A=C2=A0=0ABob, you are getting your figures mixed up. You are quot= ing figures that match up to the TSIO 550 C. engine.=0AThis is a 310 hp ope= rating at 2600 rpm and 35.5 inches manifold pressure to achieve that 310 hp= . Hence the 36.11/ 38.16 gph.=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AContinental still recomme= nds the fuel flow for the TSIO 550 B. or E. to 41.73 gph/ 43.44 gph=0A=C2= =A0=0AAnd=C2=A0unmetered=C2=A0 fuel pressure at 2700 rpm and 38.5 mp (full = power) 32-36 psi and 41.73 GPH / 43.44 GPH.=0A=0AThese figures are from Con= tinentals latest Maintenance manual (M-18).=0A=0AIt is listed on page 6-3 i= n figure (6-2) Engine Operating Limits dated 1 December 2006.=0A=0A=C2=A0= =0ACharlie K.=0A=0ASee me on the web at =0Awww.Lancair-IV.com=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Robert Pastusek =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:4= 1:55 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Fuel Flow Issue Solved=0A=0A=0AScott,=0AA very= nice summary of your troubleshooting. Glad you were able to find and fix t= he problem!=0A=C2=A0=0AAs to your last question, I have set up my system (I= V-P with TSIO-550E) to flow 43 GPH on takeoff at 2700 RPM and 38.5=E2=80=9D= MP--using the engine-driven fuel pump only. My rationale was/is that if th= e engine is set up to flow 43 GPH with both pumps running, it will run very= lean--and may stall--if either pump fails. By depending upon the engine-dr= iven pump only for normal operation, I can quickly turn on the boost pump s= hould I need it. I have not experienced a failure, nor tested this on takeo= ff, but have simulated this at altitude during flight test and am comfortab= le it will work in an emergency. =0A=C2=A0=0AA couple of notes/comments: Se= veral experienced Lancair builder/flyers do not agree with this concept, an= d you should also consider their views in deciding what is right for you. S= econdly, the 43 GPH fuel flow I=E2=80=99m using was the Continental recomme= ndation for several years, but they have reduced the fuel flow spec to 38-3= 9 GPH in the latest setup instruction. I re-set mine back to 43 GPH after t= rying the lower flow and experiencing cylinder and TIT over-temps during cl= imb through the teens. The return to 43 GPH solved these issues, BUT there = are some considerations. Selecting high boost at full throttle on takeoff w= ill definitely flood/stall the engine with my current set up. It stalls at = anything above about 47 GPH at full throttle, and both pumps working at ful= l throttle=C2=A0 generates at least 50 GPH in my airplane. I plan to use th= e mixture control as part of my power=C2=A0 management in an emergency situ= ation. Also, I have twice had the engine roll back (my wife is pretty sure this is a technical term for quitting L) during cl= imb out after takeoff when the plane was heat-soaked (100+ degrees on the r= amp). This occurred passing 12-13,000=E2=80=99 when I failed to turn the el= ectric pump to low boost at 10,000=E2=80=99 as recommended in the Lancair f= light manual for my airplane. I am more careful to get the low boost on ear= lier on hot days, and actually turned it on before TO from Las Vegas earlie= r this week when the surface temp was 113 degrees. I watched the fuel flow = carefully but no problems at all in the climb to 16,500 for a VFR flight to= Inyokern, CA with the electric pump on low boost for the duration of fligh= t.=0A=C2=A0=0AHope this helps=E2=80=A6=0A=0ABob=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0= =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sc= ott Keighan=0ASent: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:25 PM=0ATo: lml@lancaironlin= e.net=0ASubject: [LML] Fuel Flow Issue Solved=0A=C2=A0=0AHello Everyone,=0A= =C2=A0=0AI just thought I would update everyone on my Fuel Flow issue.=0A= =C2=A0About a month back I asked for advise about a sudden lack of fuel flo= w.=0AWhere I used to get 20-21gph on Take off I has suddenly getting 12-14g= ph.=0AAll run ups were normal but when applying full power for takeoff I wo= uld not=0Aget enough flow.=C2=A0 When initiating the Electric fuel pump eve= rything turned to =0Anormal.=0A=C2=A0=0AWell this problem turned into quit = the hunt to find the issue.=0ATo make a long story short I had disassembled= and reassembled the majority of=0Athe fuel system from the:=0AEngine drive= n fuel pump=0AThrottle control unit=0AManifold spider valve=0AInjectors and= lines=0Agascolator=0Afuel flow meter=0Aall fuel lines=0Atank vents=0AElect= ric fuel pump=0A=C2=A0=0AWhat did it come down to??=0A=C2=A0=0AA broken O-r= ing on the inlet side of the Electric Fuel pump fitting.=0AAir was being su= cked into the system.=C2=A0 I finally discovered it by putting a vaccum=0Ao= n the fuel lines from the engine to the tanks.=C2=A0 When a vaccum could no= t be held=0AI traced it to the O-ring.=0A=C2=A0=0AFour=C2=A0weeks of=C2=A0d= own time and about=C2=A080hrs of work to find the .50 cent problem.=0AOf co= urse I had to reset all my flows of which I now get 24gph and 22psi on Take= off.=0A=C2=A0=0ANow I am still not using my Electric Boost for Take Off.=C2= =A0 Should I or should I not???=0AWhat is the concensis of people=C2=A0in t= he know.=0A=C2=A0=0AThanks to everyone whom gave me some input.=0A=C2=A0=0A= Scott Keighan=0AL-IV=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO-550G=C2=A0=C2=A0 --0-1221782554-1251390392=:55796 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A

Hey Bob

=0A

 

=0A

Bob, = you are getting your figures mixed up. You are quoting figures that match u= p to the TSIO 550 C. engine.

=0A

This is a 310 hp operating at 2600 rp= m and 35.5 inches manifold pressure to achieve that 310 hp. Hence the 36.11= / 38.16 gph.

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

Continental still rec= ommends the fuel flow for the TSIO 550 B. or E. to 41.73 gph/ 43.44 gph

= =0A

 

=0A

And unmetered  fuel pressure at 2700 rpm an= d 38.5 mp (full power) 32-36 psi and 41.73 GPH / 43.44 GPH.

=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
These figures are from Continent= als latest Maintenance manual (M-18).
=0A
 
=0A

It is = listed on page 6-3 in figure (6-2) Engine Operating Limits dated 1 December= 2006.

=0A

 
=0A
Charlie K.
=0A
 =0A
See me on the web at
=0A=0A 
=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Robert Pastusek <rpastusek@htii.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:41:55 AM
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: [LML] Re: Fuel Flow Is= sue Solved

=0A=0A= =0A
=0A

Scott,
A ver= y nice summary of your troubleshooting. Glad you were able to find and fix = the problem!

=0A

 

= =0A

As to your last question, I have set up = my system (IV-P with TSIO-550E) to flow 43 GPH on takeoff at 2700 RPM and 3= 8.5=E2=80=9D MP--using the engine-driven fuel pump only. My rationale was/i= s that if the engine is set up to flow 43 GPH with both pumps running, it w= ill run very lean--and may stall--if either pump fails. By depending upon t= he engine-driven pump only for normal operation, I can quickly turn on the = boost pump should I need it. I have not experienced a failure, nor tested t= his on takeoff, but have simulated this at altitude during flight test and = am comfortable it will work in an emergency.

=0A

 

=0A

A coupl= e of notes/comments: Several experienced Lancair builder/flyers do not agre= e with this concept, and you should also consider their views in deciding w= hat is right for you. Secondly, the 43 GPH fuel flow I=E2=80=99m using was = the Continental recommendation for several years, but they have reduced the= fuel flow spec to 38-39 GPH in the latest setup instruction. I re-set mine= back to 43 GPH after trying the lower flow and experiencing cylinder and T= IT over-temps during climb through the teens. The return to 43 GPH solved t= hese issues, BUT there are some considerations. Selecting high boost at ful= l throttle on takeoff will definitely flood/stall the engine with my curren= t set up. It stalls at anything above about 47 GPH at full throttle, and bo= th pumps working at full throttle  generates at least 50 GPH in my air= plane. I plan to use the mixture control as part of my power  management in an emergency situation. Al= so, I have twice had the engine roll back (my wife is pretty sure this is a= technical term for quitting L) during climb out afte= r takeoff when the plane was heat-soaked (100+ degrees on the ramp). This o= ccurred passing 12-13,000=E2=80=99 when I failed to turn the electric pump = to low boost at 10,000=E2=80=99 as recommended in the Lancair flight manual= for my airplane. I am more careful to get the low boost on earlier on hot = days, and actually turned it on before TO from Las Vegas earlier this week = when the surface temp was 113 degrees. I watched the fuel flow carefully bu= t no problems at all in the climb to 16,500 for a VFR flight to Inyokern, C= A with the electric pump on low boost for the duration of flight.=0A

Hope this helps=E2=80=A6

=0A


Bob

=0A

 <= /P>=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Lancair Mailing List = [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Scott Keighan
Sent= : Monday, August 24, 2009 10:25 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net<= BR>Subject: [LML] Fuel Flow Issue Solved

=0A 

=0A
=0A

Hello Everyone,

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

I just thought I would update everyone on my Fuel Flow issue.

=0A
=0A

 About a month back I asked for a= dvise about a sudden lack of fuel flow.

=0A
=0A

Where I used to get 20-21gph on Take off I has suddenly getting 12-14= gph.

=0A
=0A

All run ups were normal but w= hen applying full power for takeoff I would not

=0A
=0A=

get enough flow.  When initiating the Electric fuel pump= everything turned to

=0A
=0A

normal.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Well this problem turned into quit the hunt to find the issue.

=0A
=0A

To make a long story short I had di= sassembled and reassembled the majority of

=0A
=0A

the fuel system from the:

=0A
=0A

Engine driven fuel pump

=0A
=0A

Throttle = control unit

=0A
=0A

Manifold spider valve=

=0A
=0A

Injectors and lines

=0A
=0A

gascolator

=0A
=0A

fuel flow meter

=0A
=0A

all fuel lin= es

=0A
=0A

tank vents

=0A<= DIV>=0A

Electric fuel pump

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

What did it come down= to??

=0A
=0A

 

=0A=0A

Air was being suck= ed into the system.  I finally discovered it by putting a vaccum

=0A
=0A

on the fuel lines from the engine to th= e tanks.  When a vaccum could not be held

=0A
=0A<= P class=3DMsoNormal>I traced it to the O-ring.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Four weeks of&nb= sp;down time and about 80hrs of work to find the .50 cent problem.

=0A
=0A

Of course I had to reset all my flows= of which I now get 24gph and 22psi on Takeoff.

=0A
=0A=

 

=0A
=0A

Now I am stil= l not using my Electric Boost for Take Off.  Should I or should I not?= ??

=0A
=0A

What is the concensis of people=  in the know.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Thanks to everyone whom gave me some input= .

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
= =0A

Scott Keighan

=0A
=0A

L-I= V   IO-550G  

=0A
=0A

 

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