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I want to meet that guy!
At 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running,
-----Original Message-----
From: bjburr@mwheli.com
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 5:17 am
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE
Yes they do! We had an Aero Commander 690B turboprop. Our pilot was IMC at night heavy snow at 12000 and decending. He took a direct hit by a goose in the right engine. It took out the prop and engine. He landed successfully at PVU our home base. It was easy to identify the goose as it was mostly still embedded in the engine inlet.
True story and I could probably find the insurance claim and checks that paid for the repairs.
Bryan Burr
N132BB
Super ES
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: "Jabe Luttrell"
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:20:40 -0500
To: < lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML] GEESE
Hello Matt,
As for altitudes geese and other birds fly high and at night. See article from the USGS.
Migration of Birds
Migratory Flight Altitude
While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not clear, there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may be advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar landmarks, fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain advantage of a following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory balance.
In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation are quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian Sparrowhawk could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at 2,800 feet. A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be recognized at 1,000 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An interesting experiment with an inflated model of a vulture painted black with a wing span of 7 feet 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. When released from an airplane at 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and invisible without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not picked up even when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar studies have demonstrated more accurately than human vision that 95 percent of the migratory movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the movements occurring under 3,000 feet.
Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, where less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is impressive if only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A Himalayan mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of geese flew northward about two miles over his head honking as they went. At 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running, but those geese were probably flying at 27,000 feet and even calling while they traveled at this tremendous height. Numerous other observations have come from the Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet recorded storks and cranes flying so high that they could be seen only through field glasses. In the same area large vultures were seen soaring at 25,000 feet and an eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The expedition to Mt. Everest in 1952 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail and a Black-tailed Godwit at 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed Geese have been observed flying over the highest peaks (29,000+ feet) even though a 10,000-foot pass was nearby. Probably at least 30 species regularly cross these high passes. Other accurate records on altitude of migratory flights are scanty, although altimeter observations from airplanes and radar are becoming more frequent in the literature. For example, a Mallard was struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 feet over the Nevada desert. Radar observations have revealed that birds on long-distance flights fly at higher altitudes than short-distance migrants. It has been hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of greater velocity are found higher up and that the cooler air minimizes the demand for evaporative water loss to regulate body temperature under the exertion of flight. Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal migrants fly at different altitudes at different times during the night. Birds generally take off shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum altitude. This peak is maintained until around midnight, then the travelers gradually desce
nd until daylight. Thus, there is considerable variation, but for most small birds the favored altitude appears to be between 500 and 1,000 feet. Some nocturnal migrants (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean at 15,000 or even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly higher than diurnal migrants. Observations made from lighthouses and other vantage points indicate that certain migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very few feet to a few hundred feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and various sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible only as they topped a wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the English coast have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying just above the surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet over the waves.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE
Hello Matt,
In my experience, geese fly where and when they choose. I flew IFR through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at 6,000'. ATC called out traffic. It was an eschelon of geese above me. I flew VFR over Harford, Ct. at 2,000'. A Canada goose was flying from left to right a few hundred feet above me. Just as it passed the fuselage above it folded its wings and dove directly into my right engine (Cessna 320). It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, lower nacelle, engine cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the engine nacelle. I was watching it the whole time. I couldn't maneuver the plane fast enough to avoid it. How could an airliner? From that experience, I now aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an converging path, expecting them to dive out of the way as I get closer.
Jabe Luttrell
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:41 AM
Subject: [LML] GEESE
Opinion by Matt Reeves:
FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit the flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and the answer may be YES.
It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the window because the airplane was on an instrument flight plan = meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft separation.
ALSO, this aircraft floated for enough time to save the passengers and did not break apart mainly because of pilot skill bringing it down to a shallow angle of impact at the slowest possible airspeed above stall speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which is significantly LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and more flexible AND more seamless preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV guys).
Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air also helped buoyancy. PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the accident MAY have been avoidable simply by looking out the window. Future geese avoidance may include horns on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, radar, and simply looking out the window on the departure and arrival checklists.
This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the window was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the ground were responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low altitude, at geese flight levels, looking out the window should be mandatory. Most geese do not fly in clouds.
All points I have not seen reported.
What's next? Billions in research and in the end, no changes except a Goose Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will simply tell us the geese are depressed that we are taking over their skies. And in the end? I will marry her.
Matt
marv@lancair.net wrote:
Posted for David Standish < carbonflier@bresnan.net>:
That being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to come out to
Montana this summer. Montana is a great place to fly. Lots of room for
training. Billings is a great small city. Yellowstone Park is nearby. And a
local FBO has agreed to discount fuel. Please contact me if you are
interested.
David Standish
flypetezacc@aol.com wrote:
> **
>
> The root problem is getting the message out to those that think they
> do not need training. 43% of the accidents are people with less than
> 100 hours in type. But, there is a very large number of accidents
> from people with 5000-20000 hours. The ease of receiving training has
> never been easier I implore those that do not need training to get it
> anyway!
>
> Grassroots effort. Go down the hangar row and let the lancair pilot
> know why its important to get training from ANY qualified
> instructor. help make 2009 the safest year for Lancair pilots.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Peter Zaccagnino
> HP-AT.com, Inc
> 1046 River Ave
> Flemington, NJ 08822
> 908 391 2001
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