X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:17:48 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3435108 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:55:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.56; envelope-from=jabeluttrell@comcast.net Received: from OMTA09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.20]) by QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5nUY1b00C0SCNGk56quSLx; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:54:26 +0000 Received: from JabesComputer ([174.48.39.73]) by OMTA09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5quH1b00c1ahy5a3VquK5H; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:54:24 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Jabe Luttrell" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: GEESE X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:54:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0183_01C97AE5.0CE05E20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0183_01C97AE5.0CE05E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Grayhawk, You make an interesting point. On my last trip down the Hudson = corridor, ATC had me stay in contact with them instead of switching to = the multicom even though I was VFR. Jabe Luttrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sky2high@aol.com=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:17 AM Subject: [LML] Re: GEESE Uh, Lorn please note that he hit the boids at about 3000 MSL in class = B airspace (7000/GND). There should not have been any aircraft there = that wasn't in touch with ATC and subject to separation. Oh, there was = no mention of his TCAS urging any particular maneuver (drat - birds = don't have transponders) and when did TAWS start singing. =20 However, as he descended in line with the Hudson river and once he was = below 1100 MSL, he was out of class B and was required to look out the = window - here he should have contacted the Coast Guard to get the tugs, = canoes and ferries out of his way. It was nice that he skipped over = that bridge in his path. Anyway, I think you have to be in contact = with ATC as you motor up the Hudson these days because of a bad U-turn = by a Cirrus a few years ago. Besides his skill, there were a host of = good things that happened after the bird bash-N-hash. I stopped flying VFR over the Eisenhower Expressway (between ORD and = MDW to the lake) once I sold the Skymaster (2 Continental engines, = different SMOHs). There is no place to land in the city when your = single engine stops and you are between 1900 MSL and 1000 AGL (about = 1700 MSL). Besides that, Da Mayor has erected pointy tipped iron fences = all over the city. Grayhawk In a message dated 1/18/2009 9:35:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, = lorn@dynacomm.us writes: Matt, The controller is not responsible for separating IFR aircraft from = VFR =20 aircraft, only other IFR aircraft. It is still the IFR pilots =20 responsibility to avoid hitting anything that he can possibly see =20 including VFR aircraft, birds and anything else that is up in the = air. Lorn > From: Matt Reeves > Date: January 16, 2009 10:41:25 AM GMT-05:00 > > Opinion by Matt Reeves: > > FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY = TO =20 > SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both = =20 > on airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit = =20 > the flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided = and =20 > the answer may be YES. > > It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the =20 > window because the airplane was on aninstrument flight plan =3D =20 > meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft =20 > separation. > . > . > This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the =20 > window was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the = =20 > ground were responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low = =20 > altitude, at geeseflight levels, looking out the window should be = > mandatory. Most geese do not fly in clouds. > . > . > Matt -- Lorn H. 'Feathers' Olsen, MAA, ASMEL, ASES, Comm, Inst DynaComm, Corp., 248-345-0500, mailto:lorn@dynacomm.us LNC2, FB90/92, O-320-D1F, 1,515 hrs, N31161, Y47, SE Michigan -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ------=_NextPart_000_0183_01C97AE5.0CE05E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Grayhawk,
 
You make an interesting point.  On my last trip down the = Hudson=20 corridor, ATC had me stay in contact with them instead of switching to = the=20 multicom even though I was VFR.
 
Jabe Luttrell
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Sky2high@aol.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 = 6:17=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: GEESE

Uh, Lorn please note that he hit the boids at about 3000 = MSL in=20 class B airspace (7000/GND).  There should not have=20 been any aircraft there that wasn't in touch with ATC and subject = to=20 separation.  Oh, there was no mention of his = TCAS urging any=20 particular maneuver (drat - birds don't have transponders) and when = did TAWS=20 start singing. 
 
However, as he descended in line with the Hudson river = and once he=20 was below 1100 MSL, he was out of class B and was = required to look=20 out the window - here he should have contacted the Coast Guard to get = the=20 tugs, canoes and ferries out of his way.   It was nice that = he=20 skipped over that bridge in his path.   Anyway,  I = think you=20 have to be in contact with ATC as you motor up the Hudson these days = because=20 of a bad U-turn by a Cirrus a few years ago.  Besides his = skill,=20 there were a host of good things that happened after the bird=20 bash-N-hash.
 
I stopped flying VFR over the Eisenhower Expressway (between = ORD and=20 MDW to the lake) once I sold the Skymaster (2 Continental engines, = different=20 SMOHs).  There is no place to land in the city when your = single=20 engine stops and you are between 1900 MSL and 1000 AGL (about 1700 = MSL). =20 Besides that, Da Mayor has erected pointy tipped iron fences all over = the=20 city.
 
Grayhawk
 
 
In a message dated 1/18/2009 9:35:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 lorn@dynacomm.us writes:
Matt,

The controller is not responsible for = separating IFR=20 aircraft from VFR 
aircraft, only other IFR aircraft. It is = still=20 the IFR pilots 
responsibility to avoid hitting anything = that he=20 can possibly see 
including VFR aircraft, birds and = anything else=20 that is up in the air.

Lorn

> From: Matt Reeves=20 <mattreeves@yahoo.com>
> Date: January 16, 2009 10:41:25 = AM=20 GMT-05:00
>
> Opinion by Matt Reeves:
>
> = FLOCKS OF=20 GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO  =
>=20 SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR = both =20
> on airplanes and on the ground.   Pilots WERE = heros once=20 plane hit 
> the flock, but COULD have the collision = with geese=20 been avoided and 
> the answer may be = YES.
>
> It is=20 possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the  =
>=20 window because the airplane was on aninstrument flight plan = =3D 
>=20 meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for = aircraft =20
> separation.
> .
> .
> This aircraft was = on an IFR=20 flight plan meaning looking out the 
> window was not = required=20 by the pilots since the controllers on the 
> ground = were=20 responsible for separating aircraft.   However, at = low =20
> altitude, at geeseflight levels, looking out the window = should=20 be 
> mandatory.  Most geese do not fly in = clouds.
>=20 .
> .
> Matt
--
Lorn H. 'Feathers' Olsen, MAA, = ASMEL,=20 ASES, Comm, Inst
DynaComm, Corp., 248-345-0500,=20 mailto:lorn@dynacomm.us
LNC2, FB90/92, O-320-D1F, 1,515 hrs, = N31161, Y47,=20 SE Michigan


--
For archives and unsub=20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



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