X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:17:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.137.6] (HELO imo-m25.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3432711 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:57:32 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.c5a.406699e8 (42809) for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:57:42 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:57:27 EST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: GEESE X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1232312247" X-Mailer: AOL 9.1 sub 5003 X-Spam-Flag:NO -------------------------------1232312247 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uh, Lorn please note that he hit the boids at about 3000 MSL in class B airspace (7000/GND). There should not have been any aircraft there that wasn't in touch with ATC and subject to separation. Oh, there was no mention of his TCAS urging any particular maneuver (drat - birds don't have transponders) and when did TAWS start singing. However, as he descended in line with the Hudson river and once he was below 1100 MSL, he was out of class B and was required to look out the window - here he should have contacted the Coast Guard to get the tugs, canoes and ferries out of his way. It was nice that he skipped over that bridge in his path. Anyway, I think you have to be in contact with ATC as you motor up the Hudson these days because of a bad U-turn by a Cirrus a few years ago. Besides his skill, there were a host of good things that happened after the bird bash-N-hash. I stopped flying VFR over the Eisenhower Expressway (between ORD and MDW to the lake) once I sold the Skymaster (2 Continental engines, different SMOHs). There is no place to land in the city when your single engine stops and you are between 1900 MSL and 1000 AGL (about 1700 MSL). Besides that, Da Mayor has erected pointy tipped iron fences all over the city. Grayhawk In a message dated 1/18/2009 9:35:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, lorn@dynacomm.us writes: Matt, The controller is not responsible for separating IFR aircraft from VFR aircraft, only other IFR aircraft. It is still the IFR pilots responsibility to avoid hitting anything that he can possibly see including VFR aircraft, birds and anything else that is up in the air. Lorn > From: Matt Reeves > Date: January 16, 2009 10:41:25 AM GMT-05:00 > > Opinion by Matt Reeves: > > FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO > SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both > on airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit > the flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and > the answer may be YES. > > It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the > window because the airplane was on aninstrument flight plan = > meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft > separation. > . > . > This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the > window was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the > ground were responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low > altitude, at geeseflight levels, looking out the window should be > mandatory. Most geese do not fly in clouds. > . > . > Matt -- Lorn H. 'Feathers' Olsen, MAA, ASMEL, ASES, Comm, Inst DynaComm, Corp., 248-345-0500, mailto:lorn@dynacomm.us LNC2, FB90/92, O-320-D1F, 1,515 hrs, N31161, Y47, SE Michigan -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) -------------------------------1232312247 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Uh, Lorn please note that he hit the boids at about 3000 MSL in cl= ass=20 B airspace (7000/GND).  There should not have been any=20 aircraft there that wasn't in touch with ATC and subject to separation. = ;=20 Oh, there was no mention of his TCAS urging any particular maneuve= r=20 (drat - birds don't have transponders) and when did TAWS start singing. = ;=20
 
However, as he descended in line with the Hudson river and once he= was=20 below 1100 MSL, he was out of class B and was required to look out= the=20 window - here he should have contacted the Coast Guard to get the tugs, cano= es=20 and ferries out of his way.   It was nice that he skipped over tha= t=20 bridge in his path.   Anyway,  I think you have to be in cont= act=20 with ATC as you motor up the Hudson these days because of a bad U-turn = by a=20 Cirrus a few years ago.  Besides his skill, there were a host of good=20 things that happened after the bird bash-N-hash.
 
I stopped flying VFR over the Eisenhower Expressway (between ORD a= nd=20 MDW to the lake) once I sold the Skymaster (2 Continental engines, different= =20 SMOHs).  There is no place to land in the city when your single en= gine=20 stops and you are between 1900 MSL and 1000 AGL (about 1700 MSL).  Besi= des=20 that, Da Mayor has erected pointy tipped iron fences all over the city.
 
Grayhawk
 
 
In a message dated 1/18/2009 9:35:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 lorn@dynacomm.us writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D2>Matt,

The controller is not responsible for separating IFR= =20 aircraft from VFR 
aircraft, only other IFR aircraft. It is still= the=20 IFR pilots 
responsibility to avoid hitting anything that he can=20 possibly see 
including VFR aircraft, birds and anything else tha= t is=20 up in the air.

Lorn

> From: Matt Reeves=20 <mattreeves@yahoo.com>
> Date: January 16, 2009 10:41:25 AM=20 GMT-05:00
>
> Opinion by Matt Reeves:
>
> FLOCKS O= F=20 GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO 
>=20= SEE=20 ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both 
&= gt;=20 on airplanes and on the ground.   Pilots WERE heros once plane=20 hit 
> the flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been= =20 avoided and 
> the answer may be YES.
>
> It is=20 possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the 
> wi= ndow=20 because the airplane was on aninstrument flight plan =3D 
> me= aning,=20 controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft 
>=20 separation.
> .
> .
> This aircraft was on an IFR flight= =20 plan meaning looking out the 
> window was not required by the= =20 pilots since the controllers on the 
> ground were responsible= for=20 separating aircraft.   However, at low 
> altitude,=20= at=20 geeseflight levels, looking out the window should be 
>=20 mandatory.  Most geese do not fly in clouds.
> .
> .
&= gt;=20 Matt
--
Lorn H. 'Feathers' Olsen, MAA, ASMEL, ASES, Comm,=20 Inst
DynaComm, Corp., 248-345-0500, mailto:lorn@dynacomm.us
LNC2,=20 FB90/92, O-320-D1F, 1,515 hrs, N31161, Y47, SE Michigan


--
F= or=20 archives and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



A Good Credit Score is 700 or Ab= ove. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=
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