X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:17:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3432738 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:10:27 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.80; envelope-from=mjrav@comcast.net Received: from OMTA12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.44]) by QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 50jU1b0080xGWP85899ttz; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:09:53 +0000 Received: from mjr ([24.2.139.44]) by OMTA12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 599r1b0020xflRk3Y99t5U; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:09:53 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <001e01c979b1$3ad17e70$2c8b0218@mjr> From: "Mark Ravinski" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:10:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C97987.51CDAFB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1933 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1933 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C97987.51CDAFB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hero sounds a lot better these days than "pilot error". If it's a manifestation of the media that's just fine. Lets not miss the fact that his first plan was to return to the airport = of departure, (the infamous "dead man's turn") but then almost immediately realized it = was too risky. He earned all his pay in that minute. Imagine the panic that would have happened if he'd hit a tall building = in New York. Mark Ravinski ----- Original Message -----=20 From: vonjet@gmail.com=20 To: lml=20 Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE The guy is a hero. He landed a airliner glider FULL of people and fuel = on water without destroying it or killing anyone.=20 He is not only a hero, he is a damn good pilot. If you dont think he = is a hero what does it take to be a hero these days? How many lives do = we need to save to be hero? 155 wasnt enough? Bryan Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: "Greg Ward"=20 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:35:33 -0500 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE C'mon Chuck, everyone's looking for a hero, and with this guys gliding = experience, he pulled it off. It could have been much worse. Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chuck Jensen=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:54 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE Not to pop the 'feel good' bubble of public heros or anything, but = why am I a little underwhelmed at the 'miraculous' performance of the = USAir pilot? To his credit, at least he remembered to NOT put his gear = down. After that, I'm having a hard time identifying heroic, let alone = the miraculous components to this 'incident'. Chuck Jensen=20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf = Of Jabe Luttrell Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, As for altitudes geese and other birds fly high and at night. See = article from the USGS. Migration of Birds Migratory Flight Altitude -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are = not clear, there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes = may be advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar = landmarks, fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain = advantage of a following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory = balance.=20 In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation = are quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian = Sparrowhawk could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site = at 2,800 feet. A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be = recognized at 1,000 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An = interesting experiment with an inflated model of a vulture painted black = with a wing span of 7 feet 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. = When released from an airplane at 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and = invisible without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not = picked up even when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar studies have = demonstrated more accurately than human vision that 95 percent of the = migratory movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the = movements occurring under 3,000 feet.=20 Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, = where less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is = impressive if only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. = A Himalayan mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a = flock of geese flew northward about two miles over his head honking as = they went. At 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running, = but those geese were probably flying at 27,000 feet and even calling = while they traveled at this tremendous height. Numerous other = observations have come from the Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet = recorded storks and cranes flying so high that they could be seen only = through field glasses. In the same area large vultures were seen soaring = at 25,000 feet and an eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The = expedition to Mt. Everest in 1952 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail = and a Black-tailed Godwit at 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed = Geese have been observed flying over the highest peaks (29,000+ feet) = even though a 10,000-foot pass was nearby. Probably at least 30 species = regularly cross these high passes. Other accurate records on altitude of = migratory flights are scanty, although altimeter observations from = airplanes and radar are becoming more frequent in the literature. For = example, a Mallard was struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 feet = over the Nevada desert. Radar observations have revealed that birds on = long-distance flights fly at higher altitudes than short-distance = migrants. It has been hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of = greater velocity are found higher up and that the cooler air minimizes = the demand for evaporative water loss to regulate body temperature under = the exertion of flight. Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal = migrants fly at different altitudes at different times during the night. = Birds generally take off shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum = altitude. This peak is maintained until around midnight, then the = travelers gradually descend until daylight. Thus, there is considerable = variation, but for most small birds the favored altitude appears to be = between 500 and 1,000 feet. Some nocturnal migrants (probably = shorebirds) fly over the ocean at 15,000 or even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal = migrants also fly slightly higher than diurnal migrants. Observations = made from lighthouses and other vantage points indicate that certain = migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very few feet to a few hundred = feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and various = sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible only as they = topped a wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the = English coast have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying = just above the surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet = over the waves.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jabe Luttrell=20 To: Lancair Mailing List=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, In my experience, geese fly where and when they choose. I flew = IFR through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at 6,000'. ATC called = out traffic. It was an eschelon of geese above me. I flew VFR over = Harford, Ct. at 2,000'. A Canada goose was flying from left to right a = few hundred feet above me. Just as it passed the fuselage above it = folded its wings and dove directly into my right engine (Cessna 320). = It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, lower nacelle, engine = cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the engine nacelle. I = was watching it the whole time. I couldn't maneuver the plane fast = enough to avoid it. How could an airliner? From that experience, I now = aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an converging path, expecting = them to dive out of the way as I get closer. Jabe Luttrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Reeves=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:41 AM Subject: [LML] GEESE Opinion by Matt Reeves: FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE = EASY TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR = both on airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit = the flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and the = answer may be YES. =20 It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the = window because the airplane was on an instrument flight plan =3D = meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft = separation. =20 ALSO, this aircraft floated for enough time to save the = passengers and did not break apart mainly because of pilot skill = bringing it down to a shallow angle of impact at the slowest possible = airspeed above stall speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which is = significantly LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and more flexible AND = more seamless preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV = guys). =20 Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air also = helped buoyancy. PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the accident = MAY have been avoidable simply by looking out the window. Future = geese avoidance may include horns on aircraft, much like deer horns on = cars, radar, and simply looking out the window on the departure and = arrival checklists. =20 This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the = window was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the = ground were responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low = altitude, at geese flight levels, looking out the window should be = mandatory. Most geese do not fly in clouds. All points I have not seen reported. What's next? Billions in research and in the end, no changes = except a Goose Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will = simply tell us the geese are depressed that we are taking over their = skies. And in the end? I will marry her. Matt marv@lancair.net wrote:=20 Posted for David Standish : That being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete = to come out to=20 Montana this summer. Montana is a great place to fly. Lots = of room for=20 training. Billings is a great small city. Yellowstone Park = is nearby. And a=20 local FBO has agreed to discount fuel. Please contact me if = you are=20 interested. =20 David Standish =20 =20 =20 =20 flypetezacc@aol.com wrote: > ** > > The root problem is getting the message out to those that = think they=20 > do not need training. 43% of the accidents are people with = less than=20 > 100 hours in type. But, there is a very large number of = accidents=20 > from people with 5000-20000 hours. The ease of receiving = training has=20 > never been easier I implore those that do not need training = to get it=20 > anyway! > > Grassroots effort. Go down the hangar row and let the = lancair pilot=20 > know why its important to get training from ANY qualified=20 > instructor. help make 2009 the safest year for Lancair = pilots. > > Thank you, > > Peter Zaccagnino > HP-AT.com, Inc > 1046 River Ave > Flemington, NJ 08822 > 908 391 2001 --For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C97987.51CDAFB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hero sounds a lot better these days = than "pilot=20 error".
If it's a manifestation of the media = that's just=20 fine.
 
Lets not miss the fact that his first = plan was to=20 return to the airport of departure,
(the infamous "dead man's turn") but = then almost=20 immediately realized it was too risky.
He earned all his pay in that = minute.
 
Imagine the panic that would have = happened if he'd=20 hit a tall building in New York.
 
Mark Ravinski
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 vonjet@gmail.com=20
To: lml
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 = 3:02=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] = GEESE

The guy is a hero. He landed a airliner glider FULL of = people=20 and fuel on water without destroying it or killing anyone.
He is = not only=20 a hero, he is a damn good pilot. If you dont think he is a hero what = does it=20 take to be a hero these days? How many lives do we need to save to be = hero?=20 155 wasnt enough?

Bryan

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "Greg Ward"
Date: = Sun, 18 Jan=20 2009 10:35:33 -0500
To:=20 <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML]=20 GEESE

C'mon Chuck, everyone's looking for a = hero, and with=20 this guys gliding experience, he pulled it off.  It could have = been much=20 worse.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG in = progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chuck=20 Jensen
Sent: Saturday, January 17, = 2009 7:54=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML]=20 GEESE

Not to pop the 'feel good' bubble of public heros or = anything, but=20 why am I a little underwhelmed at the 'miraculous' performance of = the USAir=20 pilot?  To his credit, at least he remembered to NOT put his = gear=20 down.  After that, I'm having a hard time identifying heroic, = let alone=20 the miraculous components to this = 'incident'.
 
Chuck = Jensen=20

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lancair = Mailing List=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 = PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML]=20 GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
As for altitudes geese and other = birds fly=20 high and at night.  See article from the USGS.
 

Migration of Birds

Migratory Flight Altitude

While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are = not clear,=20 there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may = be=20 advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar=20 landmarks, fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, = gain=20 advantage of a following wind, or maintain a better = thermoregulatory=20 balance.=20

In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct = observation are=20 quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian = Sparrowhawk=20 could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at = 2,800=20 feet. A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be = recognized at=20 1,000 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An = interesting=20 experiment with an inflated model of a vulture painted black with = a wing=20 span of 7 feet 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. When = released=20 from an airplane at 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and = invisible=20 without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not picked = up even=20 when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar studies have = demonstrated more=20 accurately than human vision that 95 percent of the migratory = movements=20 occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the movements = occurring under=20 3,000 feet.

Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 = feet, where=20 less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is = impressive if=20 only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A = Himalayan=20 mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of = geese=20 flew northward about two miles over his head honking as they went. = At=20 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running, but those = geese=20 were probably flying at 27,000 feet and even calling while they = traveled=20 at this tremendous height. Numerous other observations have come = from the=20 Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet recorded storks and cranes = flying so=20 high that they could be seen only through field glasses. In the = same area=20 large vultures were seen soaring at 25,000 feet and an eagle = carcass was=20 found at 26,000 feet. The expedition to Mt. Everest in 1952 found=20 skeletons of a Northern Pintail and a Black-tailed Godwit at = 16,400 feet=20 on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed Geese have been observed flying over = the=20 highest peaks (29,000+ feet) even though a 10,000-foot pass was = nearby.=20 Probably at least 30 species regularly cross these high passes. = Other=20 accurate records on altitude of migratory flights are scanty, = although=20 altimeter observations from airplanes and radar are becoming more = frequent=20 in the literature. For example, a Mallard was struck by a = commercial=20 airliner at 21,000 feet over the Nevada desert. Radar observations = have=20 revealed that birds on long-distance flights fly at higher = altitudes than=20 short-distance migrants. It has been hypothesized that = advantageous tail=20 winds of greater velocity are found higher up and that the cooler = air=20 minimizes the demand for evaporative water loss to regulate body=20 temperature under the exertion of flight. Radar studies also have = shown=20 that nocturnal migrants fly at different altitudes at different = times=20 during the night. Birds generally take off shortly after sundown = and=20 rapidly gain maximum altitude. This peak is maintained until = around=20 midnight, then the travelers gradually descend until daylight. = Thus, there=20 is considerable variation, but for most small birds the favored = altitude=20 appears to be between 500 and 1,000 feet. Some nocturnal migrants=20 (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean at 15,000 or even 20,000 = feet.=20 Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly higher than diurnal migrants. = Observations made from lighthouses and other vantage points = indicate that=20 certain migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very few feet to = a few=20 hundred feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, = and=20 various sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible = only as=20 they topped a wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and = lightships off=20 the English coast have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds = flying=20 just above the surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 = feet over=20 the waves.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
In my experience, geese fly where = and when=20 they choose.  I flew IFR through Pennsylvania amid layers of = clouds=20 at 6,000'.  ATC called out traffic.  It was an eschelon = of geese=20 above me.  I flew VFR over Harford, Ct. at 2,000'.  A = Canada=20 goose was flying from left to right a few hundred feet above = me. =20 Just as it passed the fuselage above it folded its wings and dove = directly=20 into my right engine (Cessna 320).  It damaged the spinner,=20 propeller, nose bowl, lower nacelle, engine cross over tube and = deposited=20 lots of itself in the engine nacelle.  I was watching it the = whole=20 time.  I couldn't maneuver the plane fast enough to avoid = it. =20 How could an airliner?  From that experience, I now aim at = any goose=20 or eschelon of geese on an converging path, expecting them to dive = out of=20 the way as I get closer.
 
Jabe Luttrell
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Matt=20 Reeves
Sent: Friday, January 16, = 2009=20 10:41 AM
Subject: [LML] = GEESE

Opinion by Matt=20 Reeves:

FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY = SLOW and=20 usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - = AND ARE=20 sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on airplanes and on the=20 ground.   Pilots WERE heros once plane hit the flock, = but=20 COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and the answer = may be=20 YES.    

It is possible that NEITHER pilot = was=20 looking straight out the window because the airplane was on an = instrument flight plan =3D = meaning,=20 controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft=20 separation.  

ALSO, this aircraft floated for = enough=20 time to save the passengers and did not break apart mainly = because of=20 pilot skill bringing it down to a shallow angle of impact at the = slowest=20 possible airspeed above stall speed AND it is built out of = CARBON FIBER=20 which is significantly LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and = more=20 flexible AND more seamless preventing instant flooding, thus = saving=20 lives (sorry RV guys).  

Baggage and landing gear=20 compartments sealed with air also helped buoyancy.  PILOTS = WERE=20 HEROS in saving lives, but the accident MAY have been avoidable = simply=20 by looking out the = window.    Future geese avoidance may = include=20 horns on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, radar, and = simply=20 looking out the window on the departure and arrival = checklists. =20  

This aircraft was on an IFR=20 flight plan meaning looking out the window was not = required by the pilots since the controllers on the ground were=20 responsible for separating aircraft.   However, at low = altitude, at geese flight = levels, looking=20 out the window should be mandatory.  Most geese do not fly = in=20 clouds.

All points I have not seen = reported.

What's=20 next?  Billions in research and in the end, no changes = except a=20 Goose Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will simply = tell us=20 the geese are depressed that we are taking over their = skies.  And=20 in the end?  I will marry=20 her.

Matt

marv@lancair.net wrote:=20
Posted=20 for David Standish = <carbonflier@bresnan.net>:

 That=20 being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to = come out=20 to
Montana this summer.  Montana is a great = place to=20 fly.  Lots of room for =
training.  Billings is=20 a great small city.  Yellowstone Park is=20 nearby.  And a
local FBO has agreed to discount=20 fuel.  Please contact me if you are=20
interested.
 
 David=20 = Standish
 
 
 
 
 flypetezacc@aol= .com=20 wrote:
> **
>
> The root problem is getting = the=20 message out to those that think they
> do not need=20 training.  43% of the accidents are people with less = than=20
> 100 hours in type.  But, there is a very = large=20 number of accidents
> from people with 5000-20000=20 hours.  The ease of receiving training has
> = never=20 been easier I implore those that do not need training to get = it=20
> anyway!
>
> Grassroots effort. Go down = the hangar=20 row and let the lancair pilot
> know why its important = to get=20 training from ANY qualified
> instructor. help make = 2009 the=20 safest year for Lancair pilots.
>
> Thank=20 you,
>
> Peter Zaccagnino
> HP-AT.com, = Inc
>=20 1046 River Ave
> Flemington, NJ 08822
> 908 391=20 2001

--

For archives and unsub =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
=

= ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C97987.51CDAFB0--