X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3431301 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:49:22 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.48; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.20]) by QMTA05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 4eVK1b00M0S2fkCA5hooGG; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:48:48 +0000 Received: from osd1 ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 4hon1b0020dkeQQ8Vhon8H; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:48:47 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Greg Ward" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:50:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_040D_01C97888.F6EAACF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_040D_01C97888.F6EAACF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C'mon Chuck, everyone's looking for a hero, and with this guys gliding = experience, he pulled it off. It could have been much worse. Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chuck Jensen=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:54 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] GEESE Not to pop the 'feel good' bubble of public heros or anything, but why = am I a little underwhelmed at the 'miraculous' performance of the USAir = pilot? To his credit, at least he remembered to NOT put his gear down. = After that, I'm having a hard time identifying heroic, let alone the = miraculous components to this 'incident'. Chuck Jensen=20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf = Of Jabe Luttrell Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, As for altitudes geese and other birds fly high and at night. See = article from the USGS. Migration of Birds Migratory Flight Altitude -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not = clear, there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may = be advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar = landmarks, fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain = advantage of a following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory = balance.=20 In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation = are quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian = Sparrowhawk could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site = at 2,800 feet. A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be = recognized at 1,000 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An = interesting experiment with an inflated model of a vulture painted black = with a wing span of 7 feet 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. = When released from an airplane at 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and = invisible without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not = picked up even when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar studies have = demonstrated more accurately than human vision that 95 percent of the = migratory movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the = movements occurring under 3,000 feet.=20 Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, = where less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is = impressive if only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. = A Himalayan mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a = flock of geese flew northward about two miles over his head honking as = they went. At 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running, = but those geese were probably flying at 27,000 feet and even calling = while they traveled at this tremendous height. Numerous other = observations have come from the Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet = recorded storks and cranes flying so high that they could be seen only = through field glasses. In the same area large vultures were seen soaring = at 25,000 feet and an eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The = expedition to Mt. Everest in 1952 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail = and a Black-tailed Godwit at 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed = Geese have been observed flying over the highest peaks (29,000+ feet) = even though a 10,000-foot pass was nearby. Probably at least 30 species = regularly cross these high passes. Other accurate records on altitude of = migratory flights are scanty, although altimeter observations from = airplanes and radar are becoming more frequent in the literature. For = example, a Mallard was struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 feet = over the Nevada desert. Radar observations have revealed that birds on = long-distance flights fly at higher altitudes than short-distance = migrants. It has been hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of = greater velocity are found higher up and that the cooler air minimizes = the demand for evaporative water loss to regulate body temperature under = the exertion of flight. Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal = migrants fly at different altitudes at different times during the night. = Birds generally take off shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum = altitude. This peak is maintained until around midnight, then the = travelers gradually descend until daylight. Thus, there is considerable = variation, but for most small birds the favored altitude appears to be = between 500 and 1,000 feet. Some nocturnal migrants (probably = shorebirds) fly over the ocean at 15,000 or even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal = migrants also fly slightly higher than diurnal migrants. Observations = made from lighthouses and other vantage points indicate that certain = migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very few feet to a few hundred = feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and various = sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible only as they = topped a wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the = English coast have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying = just above the surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet = over the waves.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jabe Luttrell=20 To: Lancair Mailing List=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, In my experience, geese fly where and when they choose. I flew IFR = through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at 6,000'. ATC called out = traffic. It was an eschelon of geese above me. I flew VFR over = Harford, Ct. at 2,000'. A Canada goose was flying from left to right a = few hundred feet above me. Just as it passed the fuselage above it = folded its wings and dove directly into my right engine (Cessna 320). = It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, lower nacelle, engine = cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the engine nacelle. I = was watching it the whole time. I couldn't maneuver the plane fast = enough to avoid it. How could an airliner? From that experience, I now = aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an converging path, expecting = them to dive out of the way as I get closer. Jabe Luttrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Reeves=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:41 AM Subject: [LML] GEESE Opinion by Matt Reeves: FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY = TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on = airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit the = flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and the = answer may be YES. =20 It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the = window because the airplane was on an instrument flight plan =3D = meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft = separation. =20 ALSO, this aircraft floated for enough time to save the passengers = and did not break apart mainly because of pilot skill bringing it down = to a shallow angle of impact at the slowest possible airspeed above = stall speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which is significantly = LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and more flexible AND more seamless = preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV guys). =20 Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air also helped = buoyancy. PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the accident MAY have = been avoidable simply by looking out the window. Future geese = avoidance may include horns on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, = radar, and simply looking out the window on the departure and arrival = checklists. =20 This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the = window was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the = ground were responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low = altitude, at geese flight levels, looking out the window should be = mandatory. Most geese do not fly in clouds. All points I have not seen reported. What's next? Billions in research and in the end, no changes = except a Goose Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will = simply tell us the geese are depressed that we are taking over their = skies. And in the end? I will marry her. Matt marv@lancair.net wrote:=20 Posted for David Standish : That being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete = to come out to=20 Montana this summer. Montana is a great place to fly. Lots of = room for=20 training. Billings is a great small city. Yellowstone Park is = nearby. And a=20 local FBO has agreed to discount fuel. Please contact me if you = are=20 interested. =20 David Standish =20 =20 =20 =20 flypetezacc@aol.com wrote: > ** > > The root problem is getting the message out to those that = think they=20 > do not need training. 43% of the accidents are people with = less than=20 > 100 hours in type. But, there is a very large number of = accidents=20 > from people with 5000-20000 hours. The ease of receiving = training has=20 > never been easier I implore those that do not need training to = get it=20 > anyway! > > Grassroots effort. Go down the hangar row and let the lancair = pilot=20 > know why its important to get training from ANY qualified=20 > instructor. help make 2009 the safest year for Lancair pilots. > > Thank you, > > Peter Zaccagnino > HP-AT.com, Inc > 1046 River Ave > Flemington, NJ 08822 > 908 391 2001 --For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_040D_01C97888.F6EAACF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
C'mon Chuck, everyone's looking for a hero, = and with=20 this guys gliding experience, he pulled it off.  It could have been = much=20 worse.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG in = progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chuck=20 Jensen
Sent: Saturday, January 17, = 2009 7:54=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] = GEESE

Not=20 to pop the 'feel good' bubble of public heros or anything, but why am = I a=20 little underwhelmed at the 'miraculous' performance of the USAir = pilot? =20 To his credit, at least he remembered to NOT put his gear down.  = After=20 that, I'm having a hard time identifying heroic, let alone = the miraculous=20 components to this 'incident'.
 
Chuck = Jensen=20

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing = List=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 = PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML]=20 GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
As for altitudes geese and other = birds fly high=20 and at night.  See article from the USGS.
 

Migration of Birds

Migratory Flight Altitude

While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not = clear,=20 there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may be = advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar = landmarks,=20 fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain advantage = of a=20 following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory balance.=20

In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation = are=20 quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian = Sparrowhawk=20 could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at = 2,800 feet.=20 A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be recognized at = 1,000=20 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An interesting = experiment=20 with an inflated model of a vulture painted black with a wing span = of 7 feet=20 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. When released from an = airplane at=20 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and invisible without binoculars = at 5,800=20 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not picked up even when 12 power = binoculars were=20 used. Radar studies have demonstrated more accurately than human = vision that=20 95 percent of the migratory movements occur at less than 10,000 = feet, the=20 bulk of the movements occurring under 3,000 feet.

Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, = where=20 less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is = impressive if=20 only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A = Himalayan=20 mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of = geese flew=20 northward about two miles over his head honking as they went. At = 20,000 feet=20 a man has a hard time talking while running, but those geese were = probably=20 flying at 27,000 feet and even calling while they traveled at this=20 tremendous height. Numerous other observations have come from the = Himalayas.=20 Observers at 14,000 feet recorded storks and cranes flying so high = that they=20 could be seen only through field glasses. In the same area large = vultures=20 were seen soaring at 25,000 feet and an eagle carcass was found at = 26,000=20 feet. The expedition to Mt. Everest in 1952 found skeletons of a = Northern=20 Pintail and a Black-tailed Godwit at 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier.=20 Bar-headed Geese have been observed flying over the highest peaks = (29,000+=20 feet) even though a 10,000-foot pass was nearby. Probably at least = 30=20 species regularly cross these high passes. Other accurate records on = altitude of migratory flights are scanty, although altimeter = observations=20 from airplanes and radar are becoming more frequent in the = literature. For=20 example, a Mallard was struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 = feet over=20 the Nevada desert. Radar observations have revealed that birds on=20 long-distance flights fly at higher altitudes than short-distance = migrants.=20 It has been hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of greater = velocity=20 are found higher up and that the cooler air minimizes the demand for = evaporative water loss to regulate body temperature under the = exertion of=20 flight. Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal migrants fly at = different altitudes at different times during the night. Birds = generally=20 take off shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum altitude. = This peak=20 is maintained until around midnight, then the travelers gradually = descend=20 until daylight. Thus, there is considerable variation, but for most = small=20 birds the favored altitude appears to be between 500 and 1,000 feet. = Some=20 nocturnal migrants (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean at = 15,000 or=20 even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly higher than = diurnal=20 migrants. Observations made from lighthouses and other vantage = points=20 indicate that certain migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very = few feet=20 to a few hundred feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked = Phalaropes,=20 and various sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible = only as=20 they topped a wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and = lightships off=20 the English coast have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds = flying=20 just above the surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet = over=20 the waves.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
In my experience, geese fly where = and when they=20 choose.  I flew IFR through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds = at=20 6,000'.  ATC called out traffic.  It was an eschelon of = geese=20 above me.  I flew VFR over Harford, Ct. at 2,000'.  A = Canada goose=20 was flying from left to right a few hundred feet above me.  = Just as it=20 passed the fuselage above it folded its wings and dove directly into = my=20 right engine (Cessna 320).  It damaged the spinner, propeller, = nose=20 bowl, lower nacelle, engine cross over tube and deposited lots of = itself in=20 the engine nacelle.  I was watching it the whole time.  I = couldn't=20 maneuver the plane fast enough to avoid it.  How could an=20 airliner?  From that experience, I now aim at any goose or = eschelon of=20 geese on an converging path, expecting them to dive out of the = way as I=20 get closer.
 
Jabe Luttrell
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Matt=20 Reeves
Sent: Friday, January 16, = 2009 10:41=20 AM
Subject: [LML] GEESE

Opinion by Matt=20 Reeves:

FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY = SLOW and=20 usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - = AND ARE=20 sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on airplanes and on the=20 ground.   Pilots WERE heros once plane hit the flock, = but COULD=20 have the collision with geese been avoided and the answer may be=20 YES.    

It is possible that NEITHER pilot = was=20 looking straight out the window because the airplane was on an = instrument flight plan =3D = meaning,=20 controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft=20 separation.  

ALSO, this aircraft floated for = enough=20 time to save the passengers and did not break apart mainly because = of=20 pilot skill bringing it down to a shallow angle of impact at the = slowest=20 possible airspeed above stall speed AND it is built out of CARBON = FIBER=20 which is significantly LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and more = flexible AND more seamless preventing instant flooding, thus = saving lives=20 (sorry RV guys).  

Baggage and landing gear = compartments=20 sealed with air also helped buoyancy.  PILOTS WERE HEROS in = saving=20 lives, but the accident MAY have been avoidable simply by looking out the=20 window.    Future geese avoidance may = include horns=20 on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, radar, and simply = looking out=20 the window on the departure and arrival checklists. =20  

This aircraft was on an IFR=20 flight plan meaning looking out the window was not = required=20 by the pilots since the controllers on the ground were responsible = for=20 separating aircraft.   However, at low altitude, at = geese flight = levels, looking=20 out the window should be mandatory.  Most geese do not fly in = clouds.

All points I have not seen reported.

What's=20 next?  Billions in research and in the end, no changes except = a Goose=20 Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will simply tell us = the=20 geese are depressed that we are taking over their skies.  And = in the=20 end?  I will marry=20 her.

Matt

marv@lancair.net wrote:=20
Posted=20 for David Standish = <carbonflier@bresnan.net>:

 That=20 being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to come = out to=20
Montana this summer.  Montana is a great place to=20 fly.  Lots of room for =
training.  Billings is a=20 great small city.  Yellowstone Park is = nearby.  And=20 a
local FBO has agreed to discount fuel.  Please = contact=20 me if you are
interested.
 
 David=20 = Standish
 
 
 
 
 flypetezacc@aol= .com=20 wrote:
> **
>
> The root problem is getting = the=20 message out to those that think they
> do not need=20 training.  43% of the accidents are people with less = than=20
> 100 hours in type.  But, there is a very = large number=20 of accidents
> from people with 5000-20000 = hours.  The=20 ease of receiving training has
> never been easier I = implore=20 those that do not need training to get it
>=20 anyway!
>
> Grassroots effort. Go down the hangar = row and=20 let the lancair pilot
> know why its important to get = training=20 from ANY qualified
> instructor. help make 2009 the = safest year=20 for Lancair pilots.
>
> Thank you,
>
> = Peter=20 Zaccagnino
> HP-AT.com, Inc
> 1046 River Ave
> = Flemington, NJ 08822
> 908 391 2001

--

For archives and unsub =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

------=_NextPart_000_040D_01C97888.F6EAACF0--