X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:20:40 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3429605 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:00:36 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.40; envelope-from=jabeluttrell@comcast.net Received: from OMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.12]) by QMTA04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 4CyD1b0020Fqzac54H00h8; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:00:00 +0000 Received: from JabesComputer ([75.74.178.89]) by OMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 4Gzq1b00A1w6vkB3UGzqzk; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:59:51 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <9D014A4A489B403F9642F977BAE0A195@JabesComputer> From: "Jabe Luttrell" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" Subject: Fw: [LML] GEESE X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:59:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C977D1.EFFFAAB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C977D1.EFFFAAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Matt, As for altitudes geese and other birds fly high and at night. See = article from the USGS. Migration of Birds Migratory Flight Altitude -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not = clear, there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may = be advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar = landmarks, fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain = advantage of a following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory = balance.=20 In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation are = quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian Sparrowhawk = could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at 2,800 = feet. A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be recognized = at 1,000 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An interesting = experiment with an inflated model of a vulture painted black with a wing = span of 7 feet 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. When released = from an airplane at 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and invisible = without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not picked up = even when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar studies have demonstrated = more accurately than human vision that 95 percent of the migratory = movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the movements = occurring under 3,000 feet.=20 Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, where = less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is impressive if = only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A Himalayan = mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of geese = flew northward about two miles over his head honking as they went. At = 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running, but those geese = were probably flying at 27,000 feet and even calling while they traveled = at this tremendous height. Numerous other observations have come from = the Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet recorded storks and cranes = flying so high that they could be seen only through field glasses. In = the same area large vultures were seen soaring at 25,000 feet and an = eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The expedition to Mt. Everest in = 1952 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail and a Black-tailed Godwit at = 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed Geese have been observed = flying over the highest peaks (29,000+ feet) even though a 10,000-foot = pass was nearby. Probably at least 30 species regularly cross these high = passes. Other accurate records on altitude of migratory flights are = scanty, although altimeter observations from airplanes and radar are = becoming more frequent in the literature. For example, a Mallard was = struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 feet over the Nevada desert. = Radar observations have revealed that birds on long-distance flights fly = at higher altitudes than short-distance migrants. It has been = hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of greater velocity are found = higher up and that the cooler air minimizes the demand for evaporative = water loss to regulate body temperature under the exertion of flight. = Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal migrants fly at different = altitudes at different times during the night. Birds generally take off = shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum altitude. This peak is = maintained until around midnight, then the travelers gradually descend = until daylight. Thus, there is considerable variation, but for most = small birds the favored altitude appears to be between 500 and 1,000 = feet. Some nocturnal migrants (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean = at 15,000 or even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly = higher than diurnal migrants. Observations made from lighthouses and = other vantage points indicate that certain migrants commonly travel at = altitudes of very few feet to a few hundred feet above sea or land. = Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and various sea ducks have been seen = flying so low they were visible only as they topped a wave. Observers = stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the English coast have = similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying just above the = surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet over the waves.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jabe Luttrell=20 To: Lancair Mailing List=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, In my experience, geese fly where and when they choose. I flew IFR = through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at 6,000'. ATC called out = traffic. It was an eschelon of geese above me. I flew VFR over = Harford, Ct. at 2,000'. A Canada goose was flying from left to right a = few hundred feet above me. Just as it passed the fuselage above it = folded its wings and dove directly into my right engine (Cessna 320). = It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, lower nacelle, engine = cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the engine nacelle. I = was watching it the whole time. I couldn't maneuver the plane fast = enough to avoid it. How could an airliner? From that experience, I now = aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an converging path, expecting = them to dive out of the way as I get closer. Jabe Luttrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Reeves=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:41 AM Subject: [LML] GEESE Opinion by Matt Reeves: FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO = SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on = airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit the = flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and the = answer may be YES. =20 It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the window = because the airplane was on an instrument flight plan =3D meaning, = controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft separation. =20 ALSO, this aircraft floated for enough time to save the passengers and = did not break apart mainly because of pilot skill bringing it down to a = shallow angle of impact at the slowest possible airspeed above stall = speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which is significantly LIGHTER = and stronger than aluminum and more flexible AND more seamless = preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV guys). =20 Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air also helped = buoyancy. PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the accident MAY have = been avoidable simply by looking out the window. Future geese = avoidance may include horns on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, = radar, and simply looking out the window on the departure and arrival = checklists. =20 This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the window = was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the ground were = responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low altitude, at = geese flight levels, looking out the window should be mandatory. Most = geese do not fly in clouds. All points I have not seen reported. What's next? Billions in research and in the end, no changes except a = Goose Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will simply tell us = the geese are depressed that we are taking over their skies. And in the = end? I will marry her. Matt marv@lancair.net wrote:=20 Posted for David Standish : That being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to = come out to=20 Montana this summer. Montana is a great place to fly. Lots of room = for=20 training. Billings is a great small city. Yellowstone Park is = nearby. And a=20 local FBO has agreed to discount fuel. Please contact me if you are = interested. =20 David Standish =20 =20 =20 =20 flypetezacc@aol.com wrote: > ** > > The root problem is getting the message out to those that think = they=20 > do not need training. 43% of the accidents are people with less = than=20 > 100 hours in type. But, there is a very large number of accidents = > from people with 5000-20000 hours. The ease of receiving training = has=20 > never been easier I implore those that do not need training to get = it=20 > anyway! > > Grassroots effort. Go down the hangar row and let the lancair = pilot=20 > know why its important to get training from ANY qualified=20 > instructor. help make 2009 the safest year for Lancair pilots. > > Thank you, > > Peter Zaccagnino > HP-AT.com, Inc > 1046 River Ave > Flemington, NJ 08822 > 908 391 2001 --For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_03CB_01C977D1.EFFFAAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Matt,
 
As for altitudes geese and other birds = fly high and=20 at night.  See article from the USGS.
 

Migration of Birds

Migratory Flight Altitude

While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not = clear, there=20 are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may be = advantageous.=20 High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar landmarks, fly over = fog or=20 clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain advantage of a following wind, = or=20 maintain a better thermoregulatory balance.=20

In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation are = quite=20 unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian Sparrowhawk could = be=20 distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at 2,800 feet. A = Rook (a=20 European member of the crow family) could be recognized at 1,000 feet = but=20 disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An interesting experiment with an = inflated=20 model of a vulture painted black with a wing span of 7 feet 10 inches=20 illustrated similar limitations. When released from an airplane at 4,700 = feet,=20 it was barely visible and invisible without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At = 7,000=20 feet it was not picked up even when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar = studies=20 have demonstrated more accurately than human vision that 95 percent of = the=20 migratory movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the = movements=20 occurring under 3,000 feet.

Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, = where less=20 than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is impressive if only = because=20 the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A Himalayan mountain = climber at=20 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of geese flew northward about = two=20 miles over his head honking as they went. At 20,000 feet a man has a = hard time=20 talking while running, but those geese were probably flying at 27,000 = feet and=20 even calling while they traveled at this tremendous height. Numerous = other=20 observations have come from the Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet = recorded=20 storks and cranes flying so high that they could be seen only through = field=20 glasses. In the same area large vultures were seen soaring at 25,000 = feet and an=20 eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The expedition to Mt. Everest in = 1952=20 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail and a Black-tailed Godwit at = 16,400 feet=20 on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed Geese have been observed flying over the = highest=20 peaks (29,000+ feet) even though a 10,000-foot pass was nearby. Probably = at=20 least 30 species regularly cross these high passes. Other accurate = records on=20 altitude of migratory flights are scanty, although altimeter = observations from=20 airplanes and radar are becoming more frequent in the literature. For = example, a=20 Mallard was struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 feet over the = Nevada=20 desert. Radar observations have revealed that birds on long-distance = flights fly=20 at higher altitudes than short-distance migrants. It has been = hypothesized that=20 advantageous tail winds of greater velocity are found higher up and that = the=20 cooler air minimizes the demand for evaporative water loss to regulate = body=20 temperature under the exertion of flight. Radar studies also have shown = that=20 nocturnal migrants fly at different altitudes at different times during = the=20 night. Birds generally take off shortly after sundown and rapidly gain = maximum=20 altitude. This peak is maintained until around midnight, then the = travelers=20 gradually descend until daylight. Thus, there is considerable variation, = but for=20 most small birds the favored altitude appears to be between 500 and = 1,000 feet.=20 Some nocturnal migrants (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean at = 15,000 or=20 even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly higher than = diurnal=20 migrants. Observations made from lighthouses and other vantage points = indicate=20 that certain migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very few feet to a = few=20 hundred feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and = various=20 sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible only as they = topped a=20 wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the English = coast=20 have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying just above the = surface=20 of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet over the waves.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
In my experience, geese fly where and = when they=20 choose.  I flew IFR through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at=20 6,000'.  ATC called out traffic.  It was an eschelon of geese = above=20 me.  I flew VFR over Harford, Ct. at 2,000'.  A Canada goose = was=20 flying from left to right a few hundred feet above me.  Just as it = passed=20 the fuselage above it folded its wings and dove directly into my right = engine=20 (Cessna 320).  It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, lower = nacelle,=20 engine cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the engine = nacelle. =20 I was watching it the whole time.  I couldn't maneuver the plane = fast=20 enough to avoid it.  How could an airliner?  From that = experience, I=20 now aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an converging path, = expecting them=20 to dive out of the way as I get closer.
 
Jabe Luttrell
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Matt=20 Reeves
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 = 10:41=20 AM
Subject: [LML] GEESE

Opinion by Matt=20 Reeves:

FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW = and usually=20 in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE = sometimes=20 DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on airplanes and on the ground.   = Pilots=20 WERE heros once plane hit the flock, but COULD have the collision with = geese=20 been avoided and the answer may be YES.    

It = is=20 possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the window = because the=20 airplane was on an instrument flight = plan =3D=20 meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft=20 separation.  

ALSO, this aircraft floated for enough = time to=20 save the passengers and did not break apart mainly because of pilot = skill=20 bringing it down to a shallow angle of impact at the slowest possible = airspeed=20 above stall speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which is = significantly=20 LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and more flexible AND more seamless = preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV guys).   =

Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air also = helped=20 buoyancy.  PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the accident = MAY have=20 been avoidable simply by looking out=20 the window.    Future geese avoidance may = include horns=20 on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, radar, and simply looking = out the=20 window on the departure and arrival checklists.  =  

This=20 aircraft was on an IFR=20 flight plan meaning looking out the window was not = required by=20 the pilots since the controllers on the ground were responsible for = separating=20 aircraft.   However, at low altitude, at geese flight levels, = looking out=20 the window should be mandatory.  Most geese do not fly in=20 clouds.

All points I have not seen reported.

What's = next? =20 Billions in research and in the end, no changes except a Goose = Therapist Lady=20 will make off with millions and will simply tell us the geese are = depressed=20 that we are taking over their skies.  And in the end?  I = will marry=20 her.

Matt

marv@lancair.net wrote:=20
Posted=20 for David Standish = <carbonflier@bresnan.net>:

 That being=20 said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to come out to=20
Montana this summer.  Montana is a great place to=20 fly.  Lots of room for
training.  Billings = is a=20 great small city.  Yellowstone Park is = nearby.  And a=20
local FBO has agreed to discount fuel.  Please contact = me if=20 you are
interested.
 
 David=20 = Standish
 
 
 
 
 flypetezacc@aol= .com=20 wrote:
> **
>
> The root problem is getting the = message=20 out to those that think they
> do not need = training.  43%=20 of the accidents are people with less than
> 100 hours in=20 type.  But, there is a very large number of accidents =
>=20 from people with 5000-20000 hours.  The ease of receiving = training=20 has
> never been easier I implore those that do not need = training to=20 get it
> anyway!
>
> Grassroots effort. Go down = the=20 hangar row and let the lancair pilot
> know why its important = to get=20 training from ANY qualified
> instructor. help make 2009 the = safest=20 year for Lancair pilots.
>
> Thank you,
>
> = Peter=20 Zaccagnino
> HP-AT.com, Inc
> 1046 River Ave
> = Flemington,=20 NJ 08822
> 908 391 2001

--

For archives and unsub =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

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