X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: <5zq@cox.net> Received: from eastrmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.240.8] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3409320 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 13:27:45 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.240.8; envelope-from=5zq@cox.net Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090103182706.ZWQS19141.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:27:06 -0500 Received: from newness ([72.209.206.81]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id z6T61a0071luCMU026T6R7; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 13:27:07 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=gKLyQ0ufAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=UmlQRpGUCifA-LK3arUA:9 a=nZ5mbmDxTn-9SJGM5jEA:7 a=T2kOS6n1R65Rk35lVGsuwZs9JYAA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=50e4U0PicR4A:10 a=KepYLDrJipgKZfthou8A:9 a=bR8VDj_or8it74d_UXsA:7 a=udhuAY45_I3zLZCo1RdF_-vespwA:4 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Bill" <5zq@cox.net> X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: FW: reversing MT X-Original-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:27:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C96DA6.F8729F70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C96DA6.F8729F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie, I agree with your points on the MT prop. In addition I found that Fred's = experience with his MT was quite a bit different than our experience = with ours. Sue and I have operated our 2 blade MT prop on our 320 for = 1,600 hours. Our house in Florida is on a grass strip and we operate = there and at other unpaved strips quite regularly. We've operated on = coral strips in the Bahamas, dirt strips in Baja Mexico, "unimproved" = mountain strips in Honduras and other fairly questionable unswept = runways. The wear that our MT is showing is pretty minimal. I'd have to = say that it's the same or less than I would have expected from a metal = prop. We bought a 3 blade MT for the IV but haven't flown it yet so we = can't speak to the wear that one would see with a much more powerful = engine. Interesting how we can have such different experiences with = similar products, eh? Bill Harrelson N5ZQ 320 1,600 hrs N6ZQ IV under construction =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charlie Kohler=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:35 AM Subject: [LML] Re: FW: reversing MT Compare the following against an aluminum alloy prop. Why Choose an MT prop for the Lancair IV??? =20 Less Weight. After all, why did we choose a Carbon Fiber = airplane? Lighter is faster, Right? Why violate that principle, when it = comes to the prop??? =20 But here are more facts that validate the =93lighter is better = =93 Especially when it comes to props! 1. Polar moment of inertia is about =BD of a metal blade. = Translates- Less stress on hub. 2. Less gyroscopic loads on crankshaft flange/ engine = mounts/ firewall engine mounts in turbulence. =20 Wood construction gives MANY advantages over metal as a material = choice. 1. No resonate frequencies. No finite life. Can be serviced = unlimited times 2. No fatigue characteristics. 3. Field repairable. New stainless steel leading edge = erosion strips can be installed after a stone strike for minimal cost. = Wood damage can be repaired, and returned to service. 4. Tip strike (Gear collapse), would not normally break = internal engine parts. Boy, can this save a bundle of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.=20 5. Balance easier. Uses less weight. 6. Smoother/ Quieter/ with less vibration. 7. MT blades fared better than metal blades in bird strike = tests at the University of Dayton. 8. Lightning strikes tests show perfect behavior. 9. Icing resistant. No engine heat translated to prop = blade. =20 =20 Additional reasons that MT is a Superior Company to deal with. 1. Spinner is provided -- and fitted. Kevlar =93chrome=94 = no upkeep spinner available.=20 2. Saves many hours time and has no wobbles. 3. German Engineering =20 =20 Charlie K. See me on the Web at www.Lancair-IV.com --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Fred Moreno = wrote: From: Fred Moreno Subject: [LML] FW: reversing MT To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 6:58 AM Jeff wrote: "...The composite MT prop (even with the nickel leading edge) takes=20 a beating and gets pitted easily. Making this a reversing prop (that=20 is, going into Beta) invites heavy ingestion of rocks and debris=20 sucked back up into the prop after it passes over them..." I can not comment on the reversing prop, but can confirm that the MT = props have nearly zero tolerance for even small rocks and bits of small gravel that may be picked up. The leading edge sheath is very thin, and backed = up with wood. Thus it does not take much to make a big dent, much bigger = than would occur with an all metal blade.=20 With the MT prop, if the dent in the leading edge is less than about a quarter of an inch wide, AND a tap test completed around the ding with a large coin AT EVERY PREFLIGHT shows no hollow areas, they you are good = to go. More than a quarter of an inch, or any area of hollow sound, particularly one that grows over time, means the prop is not flight = worthy, and has to go to an MT dealer for an expensive and time consuming = repair. =20 The quote for restoring three blades to new conditions was eight weeks = and nearly half the purchase price of the prop. Once repaired, the same = damage can occur on the next flight if the little stone with your name on it happens to be in the right place. =20 I punted instead. Consider the MT to be viable on clean (preferably swept) paved runways, taxiways, hangar areas and run up areas. Or keep a spare prop if you = can not tolerate several weeks of shipping and repair time. MT is slow to = ship the sheaths and repair kits that include special epoxy and vacuum = bagging supplies to put the new sheath on the blade. After that a lot of time-consuming hand finishing and painting are required to complete the repair. Don't forget that you need a crate for the round trip as well. = If you get that rock at a strip far from home, you will have to leave the airplane and catch a kerosene burner. I concur that if you want a reversing prop, you should stay on very = clean pavement with NO loose stones present. Also, avoid all winter-time ice = that might be flicked up to eat a leading edge sheath. But if you operate = off pristine, clean pavement, then more than likely, you do not need a = reversing prop.=20 Fred Moreno, ex-MT prop operator -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: = 1/2/2009 1:10 PM ------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C96DA6.F8729F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Charlie,
 
I agree with your points on the MT = prop. In=20 addition I found that Fred's experience with his MT was quite a bit = different than our experience with ours. Sue and I have operated = our 2=20 blade MT prop on our 320 for 1,600 hours. Our house in Florida is on a = grass=20 strip and we operate there and at other unpaved strips quite = regularly.=20 We've operated on coral strips in the Bahamas, dirt strips in Baja = Mexico, =20 "unimproved" mountain strips in Honduras and other fairly questionable = unswept=20 runways. The wear that our MT is showing is pretty minimal. = I'd have=20 to say that it's the same or less than I would have expected from a = metal prop.=20 We bought a 3 blade MT for the IV but haven't flown it yet so = we can't=20 speak to the wear that one would see with a much more powerful=20 engine. Interesting how we can have such different experiences=20 with similar products, eh?
 
Bill Harrelson
N5ZQ 320 1,600 hrs
N6ZQ  IV under = construction
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charlie=20 Kohler
Sent: Saturday, January 03, = 2009 10:35=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: FW: = reversing MT

Compare the following against an aluminum alloy prop.

 

Why Choose an MT prop for the Lancair=20 IV???

 

Less Weight.  After all, why did we = choose a=20 Carbon Fiber airplane? Lighter is faster, Right? Why violate = that=20 principle, when it comes to the prop???

 

 But=20 here are more facts that validate the =93lighter is better = =93=20 Especially when it comes to props!

1.     =20 Polar = moment of=20 inertia is about =BD of a metal blade. Translates- Less stress = on=20 hub.

2.     =20 Less = gyroscopic=20 loads on crankshaft flange/ engine mounts/ firewall engine = mounts in=20 turbulence.

 

Wood construction gives MANY advantages = over=20 metal as a material choice.

1.     =20 No = resonate=20 frequencies. No finite life. Can be serviced unlimited=20 times

2.     =20 No fatigue = characteristics.

3.     =20 Field=20 repairable.  New = stainless=20 steel leading edge erosion strips can be installed after a stone = strike=20 for minimal cost. Wood damage can be repaired, and returned to=20 service.

4.     =20 Tip strike = (Gear=20 collapse), would not normally break internal engine parts. Boy, = can this=20 save a bundle of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

5.     =20 Balance = easier. Uses=20 less weight.

6.     =20 Smoother/ = Quieter/=20 with less vibration.

7.     =20 MT blades = fared=20 better than metal blades in bird strike tests at the University of=20 Dayton.

8.     =20 Lightning = strikes=20 tests show perfect behavior.

9.     =20 Icing = resistant. No=20 engine heat translated to prop blade.

 

 

Additional reasons that MT is a = Superior Company=20 to deal with.

1.     =20 Spinner is = provided=20 -- and fitted. Kevlar =93chrome=94 no upkeep spinner available.=20

2.     =20 Saves many = hours=20 time and has no wobbles.

3.     =20 German=20 Engineering   =20



 
Charlie K.
See me=20 on the Web at  www.Lancair-IV.com


= ---=20 On Sat, 1/3/09, Fred Moreno=20 <fredmoreno@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
From:=20 Fred Moreno <fredmoreno@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: = [LML] FW:=20 reversing MT
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Saturday, = January=20 3, 2009, 6:58 AM

Jeff wrote:

"...The composite MT prop (even with the nickel leading edge) takes=20
a beating and gets pitted easily.  Making this a reversing prop (that=20
is, going into Beta) invites heavy ingestion of rocks and debris=20
sucked back up into the prop after it passes over them..."

I can not comment on the reversing prop, but can confirm that the MT =
props
have nearly zero tolerance for even small rocks and bits of small gravel
that may be picked up.  The leading edge sheath is very thin, and backed =
up
with wood.  Thus it does not take much to make a big dent, much bigger =
than
would occur with an all metal blade.=20

With the MT prop, if the dent in the leading edge is less than about a
quarter of an inch wide, AND a tap test completed around the ding with a
large coin AT EVERY PREFLIGHT shows no hollow areas, they you are good =
to
go.  More than a quarter of an inch, or any area of hollow sound,
particularly one that grows over time, means the prop is not flight =
worthy,
and has to go to an MT dealer for an expensive and time consuming =
repair. =20

The quote for restoring three blades to new conditions was eight weeks =
and
nearly half the purchase price of the prop.  Once repaired, the same =
damage
can occur on the next flight if the little stone with your name on it
happens to be in the right place.  =20

I punted instead.

Consider the MT to be viable on clean (preferably swept) paved runways,
taxiways, hangar areas and run up areas.  Or keep a spare prop if you =
can
not tolerate several weeks of shipping and repair time.  MT is slow to =
ship
the sheaths and repair kits that include special epoxy and vacuum =
bagging
supplies to put the new sheath on the blade.  After that a lot of
time-consuming hand finishing and painting are required to complete the
repair.   Don't forget that you need a crate for the round trip as well. =

If
you get that rock at a strip far from home, you will have to leave the
airplane and catch a kerosene burner.

I concur that if you want a reversing prop, you should stay on very =
clean
pavement with NO loose stones present.  Also, avoid all winter-time ice =
that
might be flicked up to eat a leading edge sheath.   But if you operate =
off
pristine, clean pavement, then more than likely, you do not need a =
reversing
prop.=20

Fred Moreno, ex-MT prop operator



--
For archives and unsub =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG = -=20 http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: = 270.10.2/1872 -=20 Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM
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