X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3396564 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:01:22 -0500 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.d4a.464819da (37566) for ; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-ma02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.141]) by cia-mb04.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB043-5c514953ae4b294; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:01:17 -0500 Received: from FWM-D20 (fwm-d20.webmail.aol.com [205.188.160.212]) by smtprly-ma02.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA027-5c514953ae4b294; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:01:15 -0500 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Insurance X-Original-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:01:15 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 71.85.153.156 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB34C126652116_14A4_4375_FWM-D20.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 40627-STANDARD Received: from 71.85.153.156 by FWM-D20.sysops.aol.com (205.188.160.212) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:01:15 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CB34C125B4B484-14A4-207D@FWM-D20.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CB34C126652116_14A4_4375_FWM-D20.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Bryan, Unfortunately, the 235, 320s and 360s comprise a large portion of the Lancai= r accident history. As many mentioned here recently, we need to all pull tog= ether on this subject. One interesting aspect to this is that=C2=A0I have he= ard that it is cheaper to insure an Eclipse than a Lancair IVP. Why might yo= u ask? No serious or fatal losses.=20 One thing Eclipse does effectively is mentor new Eclipse pilots--many of who= have never flown a jet before. Perhaps we might mentor new Lancair pilots,=20= point them in the right direction, offer sage advice, etc. How do you preven= t the accident after the pilot receives the training? Mentoring is one metho= d. How do you encourage a new Lancair owner to get training in the first pla= ce? Mentoring might work. We all=C2=A0will work together on this--the factor= y, HPAT and LOBO. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Wullner To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 8:42 am Subject: [LML] Re: Insurance Its ridiculous that all Lancair's are getting lumped into this Insurance mes= s. =C2=A0I understand most of these issues started after the rash of Lancair= IV/Legacy accidents. =C2=A0If the 235/320/360's are having too many acciden= ts per insured then I stand corrected. But I don't think that is the case.=20= =C2=A0Guilty by association I guess. =C2=A0Can someone tell me if the accide= nt rate on the =C2=A0LNC2's was part of the cause to this mess?=C2=A0 Bryan On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:21 PM, wrote: Craig, The root problem here is that there are too many Lancair accidents for the i= nsurance industry to accept from an underwriting standpoint. For the last ma= ny years I have been addressing these problems at Oshkosh via the Lancair fo= rum. You have attended those forums and know the issues. We have to address=20= these issues via pilot training. We cannot begin to address pilot training u= ntil we address instructor training/ standardization and evaluation. IMHO th= ere is an artificial shortage of Lancair instructors created by HPAT being a= defacto sole source provider of training. I have discussed this with Joe B=20= and he and I respectfully agree to disagree. There are many fine instructors= within HPAT-- but if there is no standardization and evaluation and recurre= nt training we begin to get different results. If every instructor is teachi= ng it his way instead of HPATs way you are not getting HPAT training.=C2=A0W= e are at=C2=A0a critical juncture today in the Lancair community viz. accide= nts.=C2=A0 I am a former HPAT instructor and have addressed these issues with many form= er HPAT instructors. The consensus amongst=C2=A0us is that there remains a l= ack of a syllabus to teach from=C2=A0and a lack of instructor stan/ eval pro= gram within HPAT. Instructors need training, too. When I began to undertake=20= the not too small task of writing a Lancair training program I looked around= at other successful training programs including the Part 141 school that I=20= am familiar with here, the Cirrus Standardized Instructor Program and=20 the FITs program developed by the University of North Dakota and=C2=A0Embry=20= Riddle=C2=A0(FAA Industry Training Standards program).=20 After drafting the many parts of the program (initial transition training sy= llabus, recurrent training syllabus, training manual,=C2=A0and ten ground le= ssons) LOBO invited all interested Lancair instructors to attend a two day s= eminar two weeks ago on the subject. The goal of our meeting was to review a= nd finalize a comprehensive training program that LOBO would submit to the F= AA for FITs review and acceptance.=C2=A0=C2=A0We have tried to coordinate ou= r efforts with HPAT. I invited HPAT (Pete Z and Josh B) to attend. Unfortuna= tely, they did not. I have provided=C2=A0a copy of this=C2=A0program to HPAT= and to Lancair. LOBO is not=C2=A0trying to pull the wool over anybody's eye= s here. There is no hidden agenda; BUT, since HPAT is=C2=A0not interested= =C2=A0in doing all the above LOBO=C2=A0has created an alternative flight tra= ining program that Lancair pilots can use with qualified instructors that co= mplete LOBO's stan eval program.=C2=A0LOBO is talking to the insurance indus= try to gain acceptance and recognition from them. I am confident LOBO will g= ain recognition from the insurance industry and pilots who complete LOBO tra= ining will get insurance coverage. Is that a bad thing for Lancair owners? I= f anyone thinks having a choice with whom you get qualified flight training=20= from is a bad thing please let me know, After LOBO receives its FITs endorsement next month, LOBO will begin stan/ e= val training for intereste d instructors. I expect some of those instructors will be former HPAT instuc= tors and will be available for training interested pilots in Q1 2009.=20 As I told Joe B., I am not and LOBO is not interested in starting a flight s= chool, I do not have the time for it.=C2=A0However, I am not going to turn s= omeone away that I or LOBO can help. =C2=A0I would not be getting=C2=A0a cal= l a week from a Lancair pilot who needs training and cannot get on HPAT's sc= hedule for months.=C2=A0=C2=A0Where is that pilot to go?=C2=A0What does that= person do? Fly without training? We know what that leads to ....43% of our=20= Lancair accident pilots have less than 100 hours in make and model. We have=20= to reduce the accident rate. We need to make it easier to get training not h= arder. LOBO will fill that void with quailified instructors. LOBO's goal is=20= to reduce the accident rate. We are doing that proactively by putting in pla= ce programs that work.=20 Best Holiday Regards, Jeff Edwards President, LOBO -----Original Message----- From: Craig Gainza To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:41 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Insurance Jeff, I do appreciate your efforts with LOBO, but I do have a comment.& nbsp;=20 It seems that the early focus of LOBO has been on Instructor standardization= , developing a teaching syllabus, and coordination with the FAA and the insu= rance industry.=C2=A0 That program has=C2=A0 been in place by Pete Z. and HP= AT for some time.=C2=A0 Wouldn't it be best to coordinat e efforts with HPAT and focus on the real problem-the apparent indifference=20= to training many (over)confident pilots have... Just a thought. Craig Gainza =C2=A0=20 520hrs IV-P To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:30:53 -0500 From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: Insurance Art & LML, You read our mind. LOBO is working on these issues. Last weekend LOBO hosted= a LOBO Lancair Instructor Pilot Standardization (LOBO LIPS) seminar in St.=20= Louis. Great weekend with some very experienced instructors in Lancairs. We=20= have develeped a very good Lancair flight and ground training program after=20= reviewing all Lancair accident stats. LOBO has been talking to the FAA and t= he insurance industry in order to reverse our negative safety trend and to h= elp us get where we need to be viz. insurance. Our training program is being= forwarded to the FAA for review for FITS acceptance.=C2=A0We will soon begi= n instructor standardization and evaluation.=C2=A0LOBO will be hosting=C2= =A0maintenance seminars this spring in the Washington DC area and in St. Lou= is.=C2=A0I promised you all that we would w ork hard on these issues and it=20= is happening. For now, we need more LOBO members! There definitely is streng= th in numbers here. If you are not a member, join. If you already are a memb= er please recruit a new member. fmi see www.lancairowners.com Best Holiday Regards, Jeff Edwards President, LOBO =C2=A0 Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations =E2=80=93 including song= s for the holidays =E2=80=93 FREE20while you browse. Start Listening Now!=20 =3D=20 Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations =C2=96 including songs f= or the holidays =C2=96 FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!=20 ----------MB_8CB34C126652116_14A4_4375_FWM-D20.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Bryan,

Unfortunately, the 235, 320s and 360s comprise a large portion of the Lancai= r accident history. As many mentioned here recently, we need to all pull tog= ether on this subject. One interesting aspect to this is that I have he= ard that it is cheaper to insure an Eclipse than a Lancair IVP. Why might yo= u ask? No serious or fatal losses.

One thing Eclipse does effectively is mentor new Eclipse pilots--many of who= have never flown a jet before. Perhaps we might mentor new Lancair pilots,=20= point them in the right direction, offer sage advice, etc. How do you preven= t the accident after the pilot receives the training? Mentoring is one metho= d. How do you encourage a new Lancair owner to get training in the first pla= ce? Mentoring might work. We all will work together on this--the factor= y, HPAT and LOBO.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Wullner <vonjet@gmail.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 8:42 am
Subject: [LML] Re: Insurance

Its ridiculous t= hat all Lancair's are getting lumped into this Insurance mess.  I under= stand most of these issues started after the rash of Lancair IV/Legacy accid= ents.  If the 235/320/360's are having too many accidents per insured t= hen I stand corrected. But I don't think that is the case.  Guilty by a= ssociation I guess.  Can someone tell me if the accident rate on the &n= bsp;LNC2's was part of the cause to this mess? 
Bryan


On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:21 PM, &= lt;vtailjeff@aol.com> wro= te:
Craig,

The root problem here is that there are too many Lancair accidents for the i= nsurance industry to accept from an underwriting standpoint. For the last ma= ny years I have been addressing these problems at Oshkosh via the Lancair fo= rum. You have attended those forums and know the issues. We have to address=20= these issues via pilot training. We cannot begin to address pilot training u= ntil we address instructor training/ standardization and evaluation. IMHO th= ere is an artificial shortage of Lancair instructors created by HPAT=20= being a defacto sole source provider of training. I have discussed this with= Joe B and he and I respectfully agree to disagree. There are many fine inst= ructors within HPAT-- but if there is no standardization and evaluation and=20= recurrent training we begin to get different results. If every instructor is= teaching it his way instead of HPATs way you are not getting HPAT training.=  We are at a critical juncture today in the Lancair community viz.= accidents. 

I am a former HPAT instructor and have addressed these issues with many form= er HPAT instructors. The consensus amongst us is that there remains a l= ack of a syllabus to teach from  and a lack of instructor stan/ eval program within HPAT. Instructors n= eed training, too. When I began to undertake the not too small task of writi= ng a Lancair training program I looked around at other successful training p= rograms including the Part 141 school that I am familiar with here, the Cirr= us Standardized Instructor Program and the FITs program developed by the Uni= versity of North Dakota and Embry Riddle (FAA Industry Training St= andards program).

After drafting the many parts of the program (initial transition training sy= llabus, recurrent training syllabus, training manual, and ten ground le= ssons) LOBO invited all interested Lancair instructors to attend a tw= o day seminar two weeks ago on the subject. The goal of our meeting was to r= eview and finalize a comprehensive training program that LOBO would submit t= o the FAA for FITs review and acceptance.  We have tried to coordi= nate our efforts with HPAT. I invited HPAT (Pete Z and Josh B) to attend. Un= fortunately, they did not. I have provided a copy of this program=20= to HPAT and to Lancair. LOBO is not trying to pull the wool over anybod= y's eyes here. There is no hidden agenda; BUT, since HPAT is not intere= sted in doing all the above LOBO has created an alternative flight= training program that Lancair pilots can use with qualified instructors tha= t complete LOBO's stan eval program. LOBO is talking to the insurance i= ndustry to gain acceptance and recognition from them. I am confident LOBO wi= ll gain recognition from=20 the insurance industry and pilots who complete LOBO training will get insura= nce coverage. Is that a bad thing for Lancair owners? If anyone thinks havin= g a choice with whom you get qualified flight training from is a bad thing p= lease let me know,

After LOBO receives its FITs endorsement next month, LOBO will begin stan/ e= val training for interested instructors. I expect some of those instructors=20= will be former HPAT instuctors and will be available for training interested= pilots in Q1 2009.

As I told Joe B., I am not and LOBO is not interested in starting a flight s= chool, I do not have the time for it. However, I am not going to turn s= omeone away that I or LOBO can help.  I would not be getting a cal= l a week from a Lancair pilot who needs training and cannot get on HPAT's sc= hedule for months.  Where is that pilot to go? What does that= person do? Fly without training? We know what that leads to ....43% of our=20= Lancair accident pilots have less than 100 hours in make and model. We have=20= to reduce the accident rate. We need to make it easier to get training not h= arder. LOBO will fill that void with quailified instructors. LOBO's goal is=20= to reduce the accident rate. We are doing that proactively by putting in pla= ce programs that work.

Best Holiday Regards,

Jeff Edwards
President, LOBO



-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Gainza <cgain za@msn.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:41 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Insurance

Jeff,

I do appreciate your efforts with LOBO, but I do have a comment.& nbsp;=20=

It seems that the early focus of LOBO has been on Instructor standardization= , developing a teaching syllabus, and coordination with the FAA and the insu= rance industry.  That program has  been in place by Pete Z. and HP= AT for some time.  Wouldn't it be best to coordinate efforts with HPAT and focus on the real problem-the apparent indifference to training m= any (over)confident pilots have...

Just a thought.

Craig Gainza  
520hrs IV-P

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:30:53 -0500
From: vtailjeff@aol.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Insurance

Art & LML,

You read our mind. LOBO is working on these issues. Last weekend LOBO hosted= a LOBO Lancair Instructor Pilot Standardization (LOBO LIPS) seminar in St.=20= Louis. Great weekend with some very experienced instructors in Lancairs. We=20= have develeped a very good Lancair flight and ground training program after=20= reviewing all Lancair accident stats. LOBO has been talking to the FAA and t= he insurance industry in order to reverse our negative safety trend and to h= elp us get where we need to be viz. insurance. Our training program is being= forwarded to the FAA for review for FITS acceptance. We will soon begin instructor stan= dardization and evaluation. LOBO will be hosting maintenance semin= ars this spring in the Washington DC area and in St. Louis. I promised=20= you all that we would w ork hard on these issues and it is happening. For no= w, we need more LOBO members! There definitely is strength in numbers here.=20= If you are not a member, join. If you already are a member please recruit a=20= new member. fmi see www.lancairowners.com


Best Holiday Regards,

Jeff Edwards
President, LOBO


 

Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio st= ations =E2=80=93 including songs for the holidays =E2=80=93 FREE while you b= rowse. Start Listening Now!
=3D

Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations =C2=96 including son= gs for the holidays =C2=96 FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!


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