X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mailrelay.embarq.synacor.com ([208.47.184.3] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3115066 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:22:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.47.184.3; envelope-from=liegner@embarqmail.com X-Original-Return-Path: X_CMAE_Category: 0,0 Undefined,Undefined X-CNFS-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=30vL5gnL1Y8A:10 a=vOf2QIqDhnMA:10 a=-fVeV11roz-bzgduCjAA:9 a=rSXiEeDL5a6zyduaTvcA:7 a=9ej3-TiQ8-RxAyOMf5_jNDvDSKcA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=cvn8laQl214A:10 a=g3nSvpR-QZkA:10 a=llhMeCGa_nYBRTltXPIA:9 a=JoN1hYwh1mu_O7-08SIA:7 a=dwGFytktgUXmNpH43fvqxhE3E4IA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine Authentication-Results: smtp07.embarq.synacor.com smtp.user=liegner@embarqmail.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) Received: from [71.1.168.170] ([71.1.168.170:11867] helo=[172.16.1.5]) by mailrelay.embarq.synacor.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.33 r(25932/25934)) with ESMTPA id C2/98-04047-306A0C84; Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:22:44 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: liegner@embarqmail.com@pop.embarqmail.com X-Original-Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:05:25 -0400 X-Original-To: "F. Barry Knotts" From: "Jeffrey Liegner, MD" Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice) X-Original-Cc: lml@lancaironline.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-991537529==_ma============" --============_-991537529==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Prop Model HC-H3YF-2UF-FC7693DF/SM17 (3 Blade Feathering Prop, Scimitar D-3273-2P) Hartzell Controllable (HC)-Extended Hub, 3 Blade, Aluminum Blade, Continental (H3YF)-CONSTANT SPEED, FEATHERING, OIL PRESSURE TO LOW PITCH, AIR CHARGE AND SPRING TO HIGH PITCH/FEATHER (some exceptions), COUNTERWEIGHTS TO HIGH PITCH/FEATHER (2UF)- Polished Metal Spinner TSIO-550E1B Engine McCauley Prop Governor part #DCF290D7X/T3 >Jeff > >As I am currently shopping for a prop / governor combination, what >combination are you using? (Model numbers if you have them handy.) > >Barry Knotts, >LIV-P, Conti TSIO550, Perrysburg, OH > > >Jeffrey Liegner, MD wrote: > >>RE: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice) >>I have a full feathering Hartzell prop on my TSIO550 LIVP, so I >>wanted to examine the glide ratio engine out to properly program my >>Chelton (which provides a continuously undulating engine out range >>ring on the display), as well as calm my nerves if/when it happens >>for real. >> >>At idle power (engine running), flat pitch, best glide 120 KIAS, >>VSI ~1200 fpm. 10:1 ratio >>At full feather, which stops the prop completely, 120 KIAS, the VSI >>~550 fpm (maybe 600 fpm). >> >>This calculates to 20:1 ratio...I'm not sure I believe it >>completely, and have programed 15:1 to be conservative. I need to >>test this engine out glide VSI a bit more before I'm convinced. >> >>In the Kennedy example below, 2 miles and 1000 ft altitude loss is >>12:1 ratio. >> >>I've done this at 10,000' over an uncontrolled airport with two >>runways (4500' and 5500'). >> >>Engine restart is time consuming (~30 sec) and nerve racking, as >>you might expect. This is what I'm trying to address within >>myself, gaining calm and experience and seeing the larger picture. >>Flying the airplane, keeping best glide, paying attention to >>outside the cockpit, program the Chelton for approach (NRST), and >>restart the engine. >> >>Engine restart is hot start technique as instructed by HPAT Ron >>Galbraith: all knobs full in, bump the primer until pressure and >>fuel flow is seen, start cranking. The fully feather prop cranks >>with effort, and it seems a long time with nothing but cranking >>happening. It takes ~400 rpm and at least 20 seconds of electrical >>cranking to gain enough oil pressure to start the prop turning in >>the wind. Once this happens, when you stop cranking (<30 sec), the >>prop might be turning at ~400 rpm but not yet started. Either >>waiting a bit with full IN knobs for self-start, or giving it a bit >>of crank helps. A touch of priming might help also. >> >>Once it starts turning under power, as the blades swing flat, with >>throttle up, the engine gets fast quickly, and then the turbos add >>more MAP, so a rapid control of throttle and prop is needed. It >>adds a bit to the inner sense of impending doom. >> >>Ron tells me that 10" MAP and flat pitch (engine running) simulates >>the engine out full feather configuration. I will be testing this >>myself. >> >>The full feather prop is worth the extra $1500, in my book. >> >>Disclosure: I am absolutely no expert on this, and I did not stay >>in a Holiday Inn last nite. Expert guidance from the professionals >>is most welcomed. >> >>Jeff L >>LIVP >> >> >> >>>Hi Jeff, >>> >>> I've thought about this but haven't done it. In my >>>installation I would fully feather the prop. I'm told it takes >>>about 20 secs to get the engine going after that and more to get >>>the prop back to a useful pitch. >>> >>> Do you actually restart or land engine out? >>> >>> Any observations? >>> >>> >>> >>>Colyn >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>>I had an engine failure on my first flight. It worked out fine -- >>>can't remember if my undies needed special cleaning attention (I >>>had plenty of altitude to return to my field). But, other than >>>that non-practice engine out, I've always used idle power. I know >>>it's not the same, but what if? I don't think it'd be prudent to >>>use my 3000 ft home field but maybe I'll try it at a longer field. >>> >>>How have your results engine-off results varied from idle power? I >>>use 80 KIAS. What do you use? >>> >>>I remember shutting the engine down and computing a glide ratio -- >>>it was pretty good. I figure 2 miles per 1000 ft maximum. >>> >>>Bill Kennedy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To: lml@lancaironline.net >>>Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:55:49 -0400 >>>From: liegner@embarqmail.com >>>Subject: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice) >>> >>>.ExternalClass blockquote, .ExternalClass dl, .ExternalClass ul, >>>.ExternalClass ol, .ExternalClass li >>>{padding-top:0;padding-bottom:0;} RE: [LML] Training (Engine Out >>>Practice) >>> >>>How many pilots are practicing engine out procedures by actually >>>shutting down the engine (in a controlled environment, over the >>>airport, with time to restart)? I have (with and without an >>>instructor). >>> >>> >>>Jeff L. >>> >>>LIVP --============_-991537529==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice)
Prop Model HC-H3YF-2UF-FC7693DF/SM17 (3 Blade Feathering Prop, Scimitar D-3273-2P)
Hartzell Controllable (HC)-Extended Hub, 3 Blade, Aluminum Blade, Continental (H3YF)-CONSTANT SPEED, FEATHERING, OIL PRESSURE TO LOW PITCH, AIR CHARGE
AND SPRING TO HIGH PITCH/FEATHER (some exceptions), COUNTERWEIGHTS TO HIGH PITCH/FEATHER (2UF)-

Polished Metal Spinner

TSIO-550E1B Engine  

McCauley Prop Governor part #DCF290D7X/T3


Jeff

As I am currently shopping for a prop / governor combination, what combination are you using?  (Model numbers if you have them handy.)

Barry Knotts,
LIV-P, Conti TSIO550, Perrysburg, OH


Jeffrey Liegner, MD wrote:
RE: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice)
I have a full feathering Hartzell prop on my TSIO550 LIVP, so I wanted to examine the glide ratio engine out to properly program my Chelton (which provides a continuously undulating engine out range ring on the display), as well as calm my nerves if/when it happens for real.

At idle power (engine running), flat pitch, best glide 120 KIAS, VSI ~1200 fpm.  10:1 ratio
At full feather, which stops the prop completely, 120 KIAS, the VSI ~550 fpm (maybe 600 fpm).

This calculates to 20:1 ratio...I'm not sure I believe it completely, and have programed 15:1 to be conservative.  I need to test this engine out glide VSI a bit more before I'm convinced.

In the Kennedy example below, 2 miles and 1000 ft altitude loss is 12:1 ratio.

I've done this at 10,000' over an uncontrolled airport with two runways (4500' and 5500').

Engine restart is time consuming (~30 sec) and nerve racking, as you might expect.  This is what I'm trying to address within myself, gaining calm and experience and seeing the larger picture.  Flying the airplane, keeping best glide, paying attention to outside the cockpit, program the Chelton for approach (NRST), and restart the engine.

Engine restart is hot start technique as instructed by HPAT Ron Galbraith: all knobs full in, bump the primer until pressure and fuel flow is seen, start cranking.  The fully feather prop cranks with effort, and it seems a long time with nothing but cranking happening.  It takes ~400 rpm and at least 20 seconds of electrical cranking to gain enough oil pressure to start the prop turning in the wind.  Once this happens, when you stop cranking (<30 sec), the prop might be turning at ~400 rpm but not yet started.  Either waiting a bit with full IN knobs for self-start, or giving it a bit of crank helps.  A touch of priming might help also.

Once it starts turning under power, as the blades swing flat, with throttle up, the engine gets fast quickly, and then the turbos add more MAP, so a rapid control of throttle and prop is needed.  It adds a bit to the inner sense of impending doom.

Ron tells me that 10" MAP and flat pitch (engine running) simulates the engine out full feather configuration.  I will be testing this myself.

The full feather prop is worth the extra $1500, in my book.

Disclosure: I am absolutely no expert on this, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn last nite.  Expert guidance from the professionals is most welcomed.

Jeff L
LIVP



Hi Jeff,
    I've thought about this but haven't done it.   In my installation I would fully feather the prop.   I'm told it takes about 20 secs to get the engine going after that and more to get the prop back to a useful pitch.
    Do you actually restart or land engine out? 
    Any observations?
 
Colyn
 


I had an engine failure on my first flight. It worked out fine -- can't remember if my undies needed special cleaning attention (I had plenty of altitude to return to my field). But, other than that non-practice engine out, I've always used idle power. I know it's not the same, but what if? I don't think it'd be prudent to use my 3000 ft home field but maybe I'll try it at a longer field.

How have your results engine-off results varied from idle power? I use 80 KIAS. What do you use?

I remember shutting the engine down and computing a glide ratio -- it was pretty good. I figure 2 miles per 1000 ft maximum.

Bill Kennedy


To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:55:49 -0400
From: liegner@embarqmail.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice)

.ExternalClass blockquote, .ExternalClass dl, .ExternalClass ul, .ExternalClass ol, .ExternalClass li {padding-top:0;padding-bottom:0;} RE: [LML] Training (Engine Out Practice)
How many pilots are practicing engine out procedures by actually shutting down the engine (in a controlled environment, over the airport, with time to restart)?  I have  (with and without an instructor).

Jeff L.
LIVP

--============_-991537529==_ma============--