X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:22:38 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.11] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3111885 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:33:46 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.c35.41328a9c (37056) for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.145]) by cia-db04.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB042-90c048be059921e; Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:33:45 -0400 Received: from WEBMAIL-MA07 (webmail-ma07.webmail.aol.com [64.12.88.71]) by smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.12) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA026-5bb748be0591276; Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:33:37 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Lancair Ivs, Insurance, F4 Bailouts, and the Farmers Daughter X-Original-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:33:37 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 68.188.79.57 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CADB8CFC9D8B43_FE4_383D_WEBMAIL-MA07.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38575-STANDARD Received: from 68.188.79.57 by WEBMAIL-MA07.sysops.aol.com (64.12.88.71) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:33:37 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CADB8CFC98C68F-FE4-1B95@WEBMAIL-MA07.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CADB8CFC9D8B43_FE4_383D_WEBMAIL-MA07.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" John, Great post. I saw your airplane in Redmond last week. Beautiful!=20 Jeff -----Original Message----- From: John Hafen To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:11 pm Subject: [LML] Lancair Ivs, Insurance, F4 Bailouts, and the Farmers Daughter Bryan asks, =E2=80=9Cwhat does that mean for Lancair=E2=80=99s future?=E2= =80=9D if the IV series becomes uninsurable. More germane to me is the question of owning a $500k asset that is uninsurab= le. =C2=A0=C2=A0And if I don=E2=80=99t want it because it is uninsurable, th= en who would? Right now, I=E2=80=99m happy to have the privilege of paying almost $10k per= year to insure N413AJ. =C2=A0I hope it stays insurable and the rate doesn= =E2=80=99t continue to increase. As we discuss safety and slow flight and spins and knowing the characteristi= cs of an individual planes and etc., I flashed back to my time in the USAF. I logged about 1,000 hours as an F4 back-seater. =C2=A0We practiced the ejec= tion sequence on a mechanical trainer. =C2=A0One would pull the handle and t= hen launch up a rail for maybe 25 feet. =C2=A0It was nothing at all like the= bone crushing ejection sequence of a real Martin-Baker ejection seat. =C2= =A0We parasailed behind jeeps and practiced Parachute Landing Falls (PLFs).=20= =C2=A0We parasailed behind speed boats and cut loose and landed in the water= where we inflated life rafts then got =E2=80=9Crescued=E2=80=9D by helicopt= ers. =C2=A0 But they never let us jump out of a real plane. =C2=A0It was too risky. =C2= =A0Some of us (no t me) went to Fort Benning and got jump wings. =C2=A0The Air Force didn=E2= =80=99t really condone it. =C2=A0Too risky. We did not spin the F4. =C2=A0Once a guy got into a flat spin in an F4, you=20= would just bail out. =C2=A0First you would follow the checklist: =E2=80=9CSt= ick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral. =C2=A0If not recovered, maintain f= ull forward stick and deploy drag chute.=E2=80=9D =C2=A0Then you would get o= ut because the F4 just plain would not recover from a flat spin. So we simply avoided spins. Everyone I knew who used the Martin Baker ejection seat, with its explosive=20= zero zero ejection capability, got injured. =C2=A0But they survived. =C2=A0T= hey might have a couple of limbs in casts for a while or a bad back for the=20= rest of their lives, but at least they survived. =C2=A0(Whatever you do, do=20= not look down to make sure your seat belt is tight just before your back sea= ter pulls the ejection handle.) So, for me personally, knowing that stalling my IV may result in an unrecove= rable spin, especially if I=E2=80=99m in uncoordinated flight at the entranc= e, makes me a little more inclined to not poke imprudently at the edge of th= e envelope. =C2=A0Even if you could get out of the plane (I don=E2=80=99t be= lieve you can) you don=E2=80=99t have an ejection seat. =C2=A0=C2=A0And a pa= rachute won=E2=80=99t help if you stall in your base to final leg, or anywhe= re close to the ground. So I=E2=80=99ll continue to fly fast, even in the pattern, so I can go home=20= and see the Farmer=E2=80=99s Daug hter after I fly. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 John Hafen IVP N413AJ =C2=A0Only 75 hours On 8/31/08 4:49 AM, "Bryan Wullner" wrote: If the IV is or becomes un-insurable what does that mean for Lancair's futur= e? =C2=A0I would think insurance companies would just start adding other Lan= cair models to the list of un-insurables too. =C2=A0 Whats wrong with mandatory initial training?=20 Bryan On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM, =C2=A0 wrote: John, Bryan & other like minded individuals, In case you have been living on another planet these last few months you may= not be aware of the crisis our deceased Lancair brethren have created.=20 1. If you own a Lancair IV series aircraft you have been informed by AIG tha= t they will not renew your insurance policy due to the Lancair losses this p= ast year (and not all Lancair losses are IV's). Although I was paying over $= 7000/ year for hull and liability-- I may not be able to get it at all. Than= k you very much.=20 2. The FAA is seriously considering making mandatory initial training by an=20= approved CFI prior to acting as PIC. Thank you very, very much. These aircraft are not toys. Please fly responsibly. We do not need any more= accidents. If you post your stuff on youtube.com--do not be shocked that so= meone thinks negatively of you actions.=20 Best Regards, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: marv@lancair.net To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 1:53 pm Subject: [LML] Legacy video Posted for "Jon Soco lof" : =C2=A0Hi,=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I've never posted on the LML before but I'd like to respond to those u= nhappy =C2=A0with the Legacy videos.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I posted a video of my Legacy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhtM9K3B= wXbU and =C2=A0what you see is a "low approach" directly over the runway a maneuver t= hat is =C2=A0perfectly legal and safe. Everybody I have met that has seen the video= has =C2=A0enjoyed it. =C2=A0I'm sorry that some feel it demonstrates reckless be= havior, I =C2=A0simply disagree. I built my airplane to enjoy and I'm proud of the vid= eo we =C2=A0shot. =C2=A0For those that may be unhappy with my video I'd rather you= just =C2=A0appreciate it for what it is and go on your way without comment.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jon Socolof =C2=A0 =C2=A0Legacy 212XP =C2=A0 -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html Get the MapQuest Toolbar . Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!=20 ----------MB_8CADB8CFC9D8B43_FE4_383D_WEBMAIL-MA07.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" John,

Great post. I saw your airplane in Redmond last week. Beautiful!

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: John Hafen <j.hafen@comcast.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:11 pm
Subject: [LML] Lancair Ivs, Insurance, F4 Bailouts, and the Farmers Daughter=

Bryan asks= , =E2=80=9Cwhat does that mean for Lancair=E2=80=99s future?=E2=80=9D if the= IV series becomes uninsurable.

More germane to me is the question of owning a $500k asset that is uninsurab= le.   And if I don=E2=80=99t want it because it is uninsurable, th= en who would?

Right now, I=E2=80=99m happy to have the privilege of paying almost $10k per= year to insure N413AJ.  I hope it stays insurable and the rate doesn= =E2=80=99t continue to increase.

As we discuss safety and slow flight and spins and knowing the characteristi= cs of an individual planes and etc., I flashed back to my time in the USAF.<= br>
I logged about 1,000 hours as an F4 back-seater.  We practiced the ejec= tion sequence on a mechanical trainer.  One would pull the handle and t= hen launch up a rail for maybe 25 feet.  It was nothing at all like the= bone crushing ejection sequence of a real Martin-Baker ejection seat.  = ;We parasailed behind jeeps and practiced Parachute Landing Falls (PLFs). &n= bsp;We parasailed behind speed boats and cut loose and landed in th e water where we inflated life rafts then got =E2=80=9Crescued=E2=80=9D by h= elicopters.  

But they never let us jump out of a real plane.  It was too risky. &nbs= p;Some of us (not me) went to Fort Benning and got jump wings.  The Air= Force didn=E2=80=99t really condone it.  Too risky.

We did not spin the F4.  Once a guy got into a flat spin in an F4, you=20= would just bail out.  First you would follow the checklist: =E2=80=9CSt= ick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral.  If not recovered, maintain f= ull forward stick and deploy drag chute.=E2=80=9D  Then you would get o= ut because the F4 just plain would not recover from a flat spin.

So we simply avoided spins.

Everyone I knew who used the Martin Baker ejection seat, with its explosive=20= zero zero ejection capability, got injured.  But they survived.  T= hey might have a couple of limbs in casts for a while or a bad back for the=20= rest of their lives, but at least they survived.  (Whatever you do, do=20= not look down to make sure your seat belt is tight just before your back sea= ter pulls the ejection handle.)

So, for me personally, knowing that stalling my IV may result in an unrecove= rable spin, especially if I=E2=80=99m in uncoordinated flight at the entranc= e, makes me a little more inclined to not poke imprudently at the edge of th= e envelope.  Even if you could get out of the plane (I don=E2=80=99t be= lieve you can) you don=E2=80=99t have an ejection seat.   And=20 a parachute won=E2=80=99t help if you stall in your base to final leg, or an= ywhere close to the ground.

So I=E2=80=99ll continue to fly fast, even in the pattern, so I can go home=20= and see the Farmer=E2=80=99s Daughter after I fly.
   
John Hafen
IVP N413AJ  Only 75 hours

On 8/31/08 4:49 AM, "Bryan Wullner" <vonjet@gmail.com> wrote:
If the IV is or becomes un-insurable what does that mea= n for Lancair's future?  I would think insurance companies would just s= tart adding other Lancair models to the list of un-insurables too.  
Whats wrong with mandatory initial training?

Bryan



On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM,  <vtailjeff@aol.com> wrot= e:
John, Bryan & other like minded individuals,

In case you have been living on another planet these last few months you may= not be aware of the crisis our deceased Lancair brethren have created.

1. If you own a Lancair IV series aircraft you have been informed by AIG tha= t they will not renew your insurance policy due to the Lancair losses this p= ast year (and not all Lancair losses are IV's). Although I was paying over $= 7000/ year for hull and liability-- I may not be able to get it at all. Than= k you very much.

2. The FAA is serio usly considering making mandatory initial training by an approved CFI prior=20= to acting as PIC. Thank you very, very much.

These aircraft are not toys. Please fly responsibly. We do not need any more= accidents. If you post your stuff on youtube.com--do not be shocked that so= meone thinks negatively of you actions.


Best Regards,

Jeff



-----Original Message-----
From: marv@lancair.net
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 1:53 pm
Subject: [LML] Legacy video

Posted for "Jon Socolof" <jsocolof@ershire.com>:

 Hi,
 
 
 
 I've never posted on the LML before but I'd like to respond to those u= nhappy
 with the Legacy videos.
 
 
 
 I posted a video of my Legacy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhtM9K3BwXb= U and
 what you see is a "low approach" directly over the runway a maneuver t= hat is
 perfectly legal and safe. Everybody I have met that has seen the video= has
 enjoyed it.  I'm sorry that some feel it demonstrates reckless be= havior, I
 simply disagree. I built my airplane to enjoy and I'm proud of the vid= eo we
 shot.  For those that may be unhappy with my video I'd rather you= just
 appreciate it for what it is and go on your way without comment.
 
 
  ;
 Jon Socolof
 
 Legacy 212XP
 
--

For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.= html

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