X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:04:22 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.4) with ESMTP id 2997156 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:44:32 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.40; envelope-from=aadamson@highrf.com Received: from OMTA01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.11]) by QMTA04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id k0o91Z00z0EZKEL5402i00; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:43:54 +0000 Received: from Typhoon ([24.98.75.191]) by OMTA01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id k1jp1Z00147eGpU3M1jtUR; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:43:54 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=daiBG3rrpv8A:10 a=PkbUxdmlg54A:10 a=JpJdAFVSAAAA:8 a=9l2rZQiNAAAA:8 a=-FIAbzsBAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=CuZbRoeddc3MKD2pu4wA:9 a=87hlFKFJk2cm7zPn0CYA:7 a=JBBrozLp8yUFMKuzRshaWjDDVgMA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=QMgMR9M9BAsA:10 a=KuHHmwkm4fMTip8XbNsA:9 a=YN2zbHeOmyzmoCVd4NkA:7 a=UPCaVZMVOwIX5HW36qR0QRx78UMA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 From: "Alan Adamson" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" X-Original-Cc: "'Jeffrey Liegner, MD'" References: Subject: RE: [LML] Chelton as a Flight Data Recorder: Post Accident Analysis X-Original-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:43:48 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <08d101c8da52$be817df0$0501a8c0@highrf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08D2_01C8DA31.376FDDF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcjaUNcJUYGbyO49QkWHrrwT6vMDZQAAUbmw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08D2_01C8DA31.376FDDF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff, The Log files that are downloadable via the ground access menu are most likely where Brent got the data. Most all the values are there, but only on 1 second intervals. perhaps more data is stored somewhere internally, I'm not sure. However the format for this log file is public information and is available in the installation documentation. I created a perl script over a year ago to use with the Reno racers and to allow the data to be plotted on Google maps. I recently cobbled together a webpage, where you can send your logs and get a CSV (comma delimited file) back. This can then be given to www.gpsvisualizer.com to do the mapping or you can just use the raw data and plot away in excel. Here's the link that I posted on the CheltonEfisPilots forums about it. Have fun, if there is a data element that I've not pulled over, just let me know, I don't decode all of the, but to do so is very easy. http://www.cheltonefispilots.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=261 Alan _____ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Liegner, MD Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:18 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Chelton as a Flight Data Recorder: Post Accident Analysis Our Chelton units are durable flight data recorders that frequently retain their data after a catastropic accident. I recall in May 2003 when the Chelton unit was pulled from the wreakage of my frined's Lancair IVP (N29ME) and given to Brent Regan for analysis, there were some graphic descriptions of the VSI shifts and G forces and roll angles and pitch changes that not only impressed me what happens inside a TStorm, but scared me to think that's what awaits us inside that IMC. For example, Brent described one moment 5,328 fpm UP and the next moment 10,208 fpm DOWN with extremes in bank angle. Here's the NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20030520X00696&ntsbno=ATL03LA094&a key=1 The damaged Sierra Flight Systems navigation systems were forwarded to the Seattle Flight Standards District Office for further analysis by Regan Designs, Coeur-D"Alene, Idaho. The data cards were removed and the systems were downloaded after replacing damaged components. Review of information downloaded from the Sierra Flight Systems navigation system revealed the airplane was at 11,676 feet at 1755:31. The airplane climbed up to 12, 236 feet at 1755:46, and entered a left spiraling dive. The last data point at 1756:01 shows a tightening left hand spiral dive with a true airspeed of 253, and a positive 3.75 G's. I also recall that his description was later suppressed in an apology and an expression of regret that the Chelton data retreived was disclosed to us outside the NTSB process, conceiveably a "no no" by the bureaucracy. http://mail.lancaironline.net/Lists/lml/Message/19072.html And so we get very little descriptive information in the NTSB reports about the sheer terror of the forces acting on the plane at the time of the accident event. I think this is a missed opportunity, and would like to ask if others would also be interested in these details. The NTSB excerpt above contains some of these Chelton details, but does not invoke the timeline and in the way that Brent Regan did many years ago. The recent N101BX accident had a Chelton unit, as have many others. Perhaps there is a way to have this raw Chelton data available outside the NTSB, or have the more detailed interpretation of this data shared with us, so we can benefit from the recorded events. I think there is a need for this type of detail beyond the NTSB summary report. Does anyone agree, and does anyone know how to gain access to it? As a footnote, I'm sure many ListServ members appreciate Brent Regan's contributions everytime he weighs in. Jeff Liegner LIVP ------=_NextPart_000_08D2_01C8DA31.376FDDF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chelton as a Flight Data Recorder: Post Accident = Analysis
Jeff,
 
The Log files that are downloadable via the = ground=20 access menu are most likely where Brent got the data.  Most all the = values=20 are there, but only on 1 second intervals.  perhaps more data is = stored=20 somewhere internally, I'm not sure.
 
However the format for this log file is = public=20 information and is available in the installation=20 documentation.
 
I created a perl script over a year ago to = use with the=20 Reno racers and to allow the data to be plotted on Google maps.  I = recently=20 cobbled together a webpage, where you can send your logs and get a CSV = (comma=20 delimited file) back.  This can then be given to www.gpsvisualizer.com to do = the mapping=20 or you can just use the raw data and plot away in = excel.
 
Here's the link that I posted on the = CheltonEfisPilots=20 forums about it.
 
Have fun, if there is a data element that = I've not=20 pulled over, just let me know, I don't decode all of the, but to do so = is very=20 easy.
 
ht= tp://www.cheltonefispilots.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3D261
 
Alan

From: Lancair Mailing List=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Liegner,=20 MD
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:18 PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Chelton as a Flight Data=20 Recorder: Post Accident Analysis

Our Chelton units are durable flight data recorders that frequently = retain=20 their data after a catastropic accident.  I recall in May 2003 when = the=20 Chelton unit was pulled from the wreakage of my frined's Lancair IVP = (N29ME) and=20 given to Brent Regan for analysis, there were some graphic descriptions = of the=20 VSI shifts and G forces and roll angles and pitch changes that not only=20 impressed me what happens inside a TStorm, but scared me to think that's = what=20 awaits us inside that IMC.  For example, Brent described one moment = 5,328=20 fpm UP and the next moment 10,208 fpm DOWN with extremes in bank = angle.

Here's the NTSB report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=3D20030520X00696&= ntsbno=3DATL03LA094&akey=3D1
The damaged = Sierra Flight=20 Systems navigation systems were forwarded to the Seattle Flight = Standards=20 District Office for further analysis by Regan Designs, Coeur-D"Alene, = Idaho. The=20 data cards were removed and the systems were downloaded after replacing = damaged=20 components. Review of information downloaded from the Sierra Flight = Systems=20 navigation system revealed the airplane was at 11,676 feet at 1755:31. = The=20 airplane climbed up to 12, 236 feet at 1755:46, and entered a left = spiraling=20 dive. The last data point at 1756:01 shows a tightening left hand spiral = dive=20 with a true airspeed of 253, and a positive 3.75 G's.
 
I also recall that his description was later suppressed in an = apology and=20 an expression of regret that the Chelton data retreived was disclosed to = us=20 outside the NTSB process, conceiveably a "no no" by the = bureaucracy. =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/Lists/lml/Message/19072.html

And so we get very little descriptive information in the NTSB = reports about=20 the sheer terror of the forces acting on the plane at the time of the = accident=20 event.  I think this is a missed opportunity, and would like to ask = if=20 others would also be interested in these details.  The NTSB excerpt = above=20 contains some of these Chelton details, but does not invoke the timeline = and in=20 the way that Brent Regan did many years ago.

The recent N101BX accident had a Chelton unit, as have many = others. =20 Perhaps there is a way to have this raw Chelton data available outside = the NTSB,=20 or have the more detailed interpretation of this data shared with us, so = we can=20 benefit from the recorded events.

I think there is a need for this type of detail beyond the NTSB = summary=20 report.  Does anyone agree, and does anyone know how to gain access = to=20 it?

As a footnote, I'm sure many ListServ members appreciate Brent = Regan's=20 contributions everytime he weighs in.

Jeff Liegner
LIVP






 

------=_NextPart_000_08D2_01C8DA31.376FDDF0--