X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:59:31 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.249] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2581671 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:33:14 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.249; envelope-from=akadamson@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so348586ana.81 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:32:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:references:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer:x-mimeole:thread-index:in-reply-to:sender; b=vd94VCLefbQY3PfuvxnrUB5eGj5uEShMiK/twAkJWEcYx9llY+h6XMU0vD/UDUJ4ZqOqYl3/EWO0TnoHev7i8qTcIwL0fvkP/hKlwADFwr42tr6P6byx16NA78Jyc2D5NqfZn7arY4VN1UGtrW2Vcd5tYWa7MBEGgBa3XZJ/R04= Received: by 10.100.91.17 with SMTP id o17mr8188442anb.109.1197678752469; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:32:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from Typhoon ( [76.97.53.219]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n29sm8463259elf.2007.12.14.16.32.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:32:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Alan Adamson" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: GAMI Injectors - question for Walter X-Original-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:32:31 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <034701c83eb1$fb8610e0$3001a8c0@highrf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0348_01C83E88.12B008E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: Acg+mkaTbdMDGNHMTZ+lV2Z5NdaLLAAFzv2Q In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: Alan Adamson This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0348_01C83E88.12B008E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll throw in my nickel in this discussion, but it has nothing to do with performance, etc. From the tests that Rob Logan did (and published to the LML). If you are really seeing 1.5" of MAP in addition when RAM is on, then you are right on the ragged edge of the stock injectors leaking fuel all over the tops of your cylinders. :)... (actually, it's not that bad, but yes, they will leak). Rob found that just north of 1.5" of MAP on RAM would cause the stock (non turbo-railed) injectors to leak fuel. I think it was Mike Mahar that has made some sets of rails to solve this problem and at well south of what you'd have to pay for the rails from TCM. I'm gonna wait and see what I end up with for RAM on mine, but will most likely look for a solution to the leaking injector problem. Search the LML for Robs original posts and pictures, he made many tests primarily around improving RAM performance for "stock" racing, and found the injector leaking problem. Alan _____ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Douglas Brunner Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:43 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: GAMI Injectors - question for Walter Walter and Others, I have been following this topic with some interest and it has come up before. I have an IO-550N with GAMI injectors and on my first GAMI lean test it appears that the spread between the first and last EGT to peak is about 0.2 gal/hr. In otherwords - pretty darn good. My ram air setup gives about 1.5 inches increase in manifold pressure. I intend to operate LOP at "high" altitudes (high teens mostly) and would like a smooth running engine. Is it the consensus of opinion that using turbo injectors and pressurizing them creates a smoother running engine? Has this been consistently demonstrated? The reason that I ask is that people that I respect have come down on both sides of this issue. Some say that pressurizing the injectors is crucial, others that it makes no difference. * At what altitudes and at what settings LOP (20 deg vs 100 deg) do you notice this effect? * If you turn off the ram air (but still run LOP) does the engine run more smoothly? Obviously, I can test these issues myself in the future (I am still in Phase 1), but am interested in others experience. D. Brunner N241DB - 25 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Atkinson To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: [LML] Re: GAMI Injectors - question for Walter Mark: One factor you did not mention is that when using ram air, the pressure in the induction system can be higher than upper deck cooling air flow. This can cause fuel to actually leak out of injectors causing blue staining nearby. Yes, but not if you use the turbo-type injectors. **the improvement in engine smoothness when running LOP in high altitude cruise is DRAMATIC. Due in large part to the better atomization and therefore better vaporization. Walter ------=_NextPart_000_0348_01C83E88.12B008E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll throw in my nickel in this discussion, but = it has=20 nothing to do with performance, etc.
 
From the tests that Rob Logan did (and = published to the=20 LML). If you are really seeing 1.5" of MAP in addition when RAM is on, = then you=20 are right on the ragged edge of the stock injectors leaking fuel all = over the=20 tops of your cylinders.  :)... (actually, it's not that bad, but = yes, they=20 will leak).
 
Rob found that just north of 1.5" of MAP on RAM = would cause=20 the stock (non turbo-railed) injectors to leak fuel.  I think it = was Mike=20 Mahar that has made some sets of rails to solve this problem and at well = south=20 of what you'd have to pay for the rails from TCM.
 
I'm gonna wait and see what I end up with for = RAM on mine,=20 but will most likely look for a solution to the leaking injector=20 problem.
 
Search the LML for Robs original posts and = pictures, he=20 made many tests primarily around improving RAM performance for "stock" = racing,=20 and found the injector leaking problem.
 
Alan

From: Lancair Mailing List=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Douglas=20 Brunner
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:43 PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: GAMI Injectors - = question for=20 Walter

Walter and Others,
 
I have been following this topic with = some=20 interest and it has come up before.
 
I have an IO-550N with GAMI injectors = and on my=20 first GAMI lean test it appears that the spread  between the first = and last=20 EGT to peak is about 0.2 gal/hr.  In otherwords - pretty=20 darn good.  My ram air setup gives about 1.5 inches increase = in=20 manifold pressure. I intend to = operate LOP at=20 "high" altitudes (high teens mostly) and would like a smooth running=20 engine. 
 
Is it the consensus of opinion that = using turbo=20 injectors and pressurizing them creates a smoother running engine?  = Has=20 this been consistently demonstrated?
 
The reason that I ask is that people = that I respect=20 have come down on both sides of this issue.  Some say that = pressurizing the=20 injectors is crucial, others that it makes no difference.  =
  • At what altitudes and at what settings = LOP (20 deg=20 vs 100 deg) do you notice this effect?=20
  • If you turn off the ram air (but still = run LOP)=20 does the engine run more smoothly?
Obviously, I can test these issues = myself in the=20 future (I am still in Phase 1), but am interested in others=20 experience.
 
D. Brunner
N241DB - 25 hours
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Walter Atkinson
Sent: Thursday, December 13, = 2007 2:59=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: GAMI = Injectors -=20 question for Walter

Mark:

One factor you did not mention is = that when using=20 ram air, the pressure in the induction system can be higher than upper = deck=20 cooling air flow.  This can cause fuel to actually leak out of = injectors=20 causing blue staining nearby.
Yes, but not if you use the turbo-type injectors.
**the improvement in = engine=20 smoothness when running LOP in high altitude cruise is=20 DRAMATIC. 

Due in large part to the better atomization and therefore better=20 vaporization.

Walter
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