X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:36:59 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.199] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2342600 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:00:09 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=167.206.4.199; envelope-from=barkerasset@earthlink.net Received: from OFFICE2004 (ool-44c6358d.dyn.optonline.net [68.198.53.141]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with SMTP id <0JOO004XCQB7IVH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:59:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:59:35 -0400 From: Bob Barker Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Homebuilt Liability X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-id: <003201c7fbc9$26d0b9c0$6501a8c0@OFFICE2004> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_3bR+a9SMgnjhZ/qlQRPuYg)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_3bR+a9SMgnjhZ/qlQRPuYg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Shakespeare was close when he said "First, we kill all the lawyers", If he had said "first we kill all the tort lawyers" he would have been closer. But I am an arbitrator and know tort law is essential. It is a good thing, but like beer it serves best when it is served in moderation. We fly because we love it. There are risks, there is no way to eliminate them, but we still fly because we love it. We minimize the risk of flying by flying safely but cannot eliminate all risk. Those who build, build because they love it. Liability is the risk that comes with building. It it can be minimized but not eliminated without destroying our plane, our love. The risk can be minimized by building with care. This provides a greater measure of protection than all the legal moves you may make. But by all means do both. Then shrug your shoulders and trust to fate. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Smiley To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:19 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Homebuilt Liability Bob and Jeff, I agree. There is no control on use of a sold asset regardless of the agreements made. ie museum. If you maintain any control over the airplane after sale; it might be construed in a legal proceeding that you have some ownership of the plane. (ie similar to IRS rulings on asset sales to dump assets out of your estate). "There is also the problem of "chain of ownership" which holds all previous owners liable to and need to defend in a lawsuit. I recently sold a motel which I did not build. It was a gas station and garage in an earlier day. We had to remove the fuel tanks, remove tainted soil, conduct quarterly water sample tests until the treatment was successful. Received a notice of no further action from the Department of Ecology. If fifty years from now the owner digs up the dirt for another project and tainted soil is discovered; we are liable for that as well as all present and past owners to cure the problem. Another scenario. Let's say you keep the plane in your hanger. It is an asset, right? Subject to attachment in a lawsuit. Let's say you are sued for another event and a judgement is filed. The sheriff confiscates your plane for judgement settlement. It is sold in a Sheriff's sale. You are now exposed to further liablility action if an accident occurs with the plane. So there is no protection there. Am I paranoid? Some will say yes. BUT, if you are a cash cow in this litigous society; you must be ever aware of possible situations and protect yourself. I have come to the conclusion that the only safe way to resolve the issue is to eliminate the risk of any possible exposure by: Destroying the parts that you manufactured. ie any component that you assembled or manufactured which is: All airframe components, Possibly assemblying the instrument panel, any modificiations to the engine which renders it expermental and not certified tags the engine as a "Your Name-Lycoming" etc. should also be destroyed or disassembled and sold separately. Some people say you dissassemble the plane and sell the parts to the same ownner. I say NOT. If you sell a wing. You are the manufacturer of that wing. Same exposure applies. You can sell the parts ie products you purchased and placed into the airplane but not in their assembled state. Thus an instrument panel could not be sold because you put it together and wired it up. The Lancair hardware kit could be sold but not the hardware you made. If you are worth more than a million or say several million dollars net worth; a $100,000 or $400,000 lancair becomes insiginficant as compared to the risk involved. If you have a home, couple cars, a small life insurance policy; then you might consider it. Attorneys always are on the lookout for deep pockets. My father was a secretary for a small cemetery association. It was sued. The ambulance chaser attorney held discovery proceedings for all members of the board to determine their net worth, insurance policies, assets held. Dad was the one with money bag pockets. The attorney dropped the case on all the other members, even the one that was involved in the incident, and sued dad. The insurance company took over the lawsuit and settled for $50,000. This soured dad on community service and thus a 50 year history of community service was ended and he was very bitter about the experience. Would I do it again? You bet I would. I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything else. I really loved building a work of art that flew. When I flew next to Don Goetz for the first time in a machine that I had created; It ranks right up there with marriage to my second wife, and college graduation. The hard part is now to pick up the emotional courage to take a saw to the fuselage, wings, and control surfaces. Also the motor needs to be dissassembled and the parts sold separately. I did not manufacture the parts but the assembly was under my supervision by an overhaul facility. How do you destroy a work of art? That is my dilema. Bob Smiley N94RJ --Boundary_(ID_3bR+a9SMgnjhZ/qlQRPuYg) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Shakespeare was close when he said "First, we kill all the lawyers", If he had said "first we kill all the tort lawyers" he would have been closer. But I am an arbitrator and know tort law is essential. It is a good thing, but like beer it serves best when it is served in  moderation.
 
We fly because we love it. There are risks, there is no way to eliminate them, but we still fly because we love it. We minimize the risk of flying by flying safely but cannot eliminate all risk.
 
Those who build, build because they love it. Liability is the risk that comes with building. It it can be minimized  but not eliminated without destroying our plane, our love. The risk can be minimized by building with care. This provides a greater measure of protection than all the legal moves you may make. But by all means do both. Then shrug your shoulders and trust to fate.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Smiley
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:19 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Homebuilt Liability

Bob and Jeff,
 
 
I agree.  There is no control on use of a sold asset regardless of the agreements made. ie museum.  If you maintain any control over the airplane after sale; it might be construed in a legal proceeding that you have some ownership of the plane. (ie similar to IRS rulings on asset sales to dump assets out of your estate).  "There is also the problem of "chain of ownership" which holds all previous owners liable to and need to defend in a lawsuit.
 
I recently sold a motel which I did not build.  It was a gas station and garage in an earlier day.  We had to remove the fuel tanks, remove tainted soil, conduct quarterly water sample tests until the treatment was successful. Received a notice of no further action from the Department of Ecology.  If fifty years from now the owner digs up the dirt for another project and tainted soil is discovered;  we are liable for that as well as all present and past owners to cure the problem. 
 
Another scenario.  Let's say you keep the plane in your hanger.  It is an asset, right?  Subject to attachment in a lawsuit.  Let's say you are sued for another event and a judgement is filed.  The sheriff confiscates your plane for judgement settlement. It is sold in a Sheriff's sale. You are now exposed to further liablility action if an accident occurs with the plane. So there is no protection there.  Am I paranoid?  Some will say yes. BUT, if you are a cash cow in this litigous society; you must be ever aware of possible situations and protect yourself.
 
I have come to the conclusion that the only safe way to resolve the issue is to eliminate the risk of any possible exposure by:
 
Destroying the parts that you manufactured. ie any component that you assembled or manufactured which is:
 
All  airframe components, Possibly assemblying the instrument panel, any modificiations to the engine which renders it expermental and not certified tags the engine as a "Your Name-Lycoming"  etc. should also be destroyed or disassembled and sold separately.
 
Some people say you dissassemble the plane and sell the parts to the same ownner.  I say NOT.  If you sell a wing.  You are the manufacturer of that wing.  Same exposure applies.
 
You can sell the parts ie products you purchased and placed into the airplane but not in their assembled state.  Thus an instrument panel could not be sold because you put it together and wired it up.  The Lancair hardware kit could be sold but not the hardware you made.
 
If you are worth more than a million or say several million dollars net worth; a $100,000 or $400,000 lancair becomes insiginficant as compared to the risk involved.  If you have a home, couple cars, a small life insurance policy; then you might consider it. Attorneys always are on the lookout for deep pockets.
 
My father was a secretary for a small cemetery association.  It was sued.  The ambulance chaser attorney held discovery proceedings for all members of the board to determine their net worth, insurance policies, assets held.  Dad was the one with money bag pockets.  The attorney dropped the case on all the other members, even the one that was involved in the incident, and sued dad.  The insurance company took over the lawsuit and settled for $50,000. This soured dad on community service and thus a 50 year history of community service was ended and he was very bitter about the experience.
 
Would I do it again? You bet I would.  I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything else.  I really loved building a work of art that flew.  When I flew next to Don Goetz for the first time in a machine that I had created; It ranks right up there with marriage to my second wife, and college graduation. 
 
The hard part is now to pick up the emotional courage to take a saw to the fuselage, wings, and control surfaces.  Also the motor needs to be dissassembled and the parts sold separately.  I did not manufacture the parts but the assembly was under my supervision by an overhaul facility.  How do you destroy a work of art?  That is my dilema.
 
Bob Smiley
N94RJ
 
 
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