X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:35:56 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from ironport5.liveoakmail.com ([216.110.12.21] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.11) with ESMTP id 2261734 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:28:29 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.110.12.21; envelope-from=walter@advancedpilot.com X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CABNKwUZAMf4V/2dsb2JhbACCbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.19,259,1183352400"; d="scan'208,217";a="25000601" Received: from rs5.liveoakhosting.com (HELO secure5.liveoakhosting.com) ([64.49.254.21]) by ironport5.liveoakmail.com with ESMTP; 14 Aug 2007 08:27:50 -0500 Received: (qmail 25031 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2007 08:27:50 -0500 Received: from ip12-197-248-167.networkusa.com (HELO ?12.197.248.167?) (12.197.248.167) by rs5.liveoakhosting.com with (AES128-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 14 Aug 2007 08:27:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-484953616 X-Original-Message-Id: From: Walter Atkinson Subject: Re: [LML] Cirrus Aircraft, the Farmer's Daughter, and a BRS X-Original-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:27:47 -0500 X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) --Apple-Mail-1-484953616 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed John: I like your wife. I call BS also! The truth is that the chute works rather well. The 1500 fpm thing is =20= not accurate. It is designed to lower the aircraft onto flat terrain =20= at a slow enough speed that the gear absorbs the vast amount of the =20 impact energy. I can't recall the actual descent rate but I think =20 500fpm (about 8 feet per second) is about right. That's a very =20 reasonable rate. As a comparison, the Shuttle must be landed at less =20= than 9 fps vertical rate.) The chute works pretty doggone well as =20 has been attested several times now. The big problem is descending =20 into water where the gear doesn't absorb the impact. It is not unusual for NO-time pilots to buy a Cirrus. I think there =20 are more logical approaches, but it's not all that unusual, either. =20 It's not unlike the guy who builds a Lancair before he learns to =20 fly. It happens. We have to admit that the game has changed. It's =20 no longer the ONLY way to learn to come up through the ranks. I know =20= several pilots who learned in a Bonanza. Heck, Arthur Godfrey got =20 his initial Private Certificate in a single-pilot DC-3. Walter On Aug 14, 2007, at 4:52 AM, John Hafen wrote: I was cleaning out one of my hangars the other day as two guys =20 wandered up and enthusiastically inquired about renting a hangar. =20 Seems it was a father-in-law/son-in-law duo that had just come into =20 money from selling a company. Now, naturally, it was time to rush =20 out and buy a =93Technically Advanced Airplane.=94 They had the Cirrus sale all lined up but the Cirrus sales guy told =20 them they really should have a hangar for their new bird. So they =20 went looking (=93Here, hangar hangar hangar=85=85=94 Damn, suckers = don=92t =20 just grow on trees!) Both of the gents, but especially the younger one, positively effused =20= about the capabilities of the new Cirrus and how absolutely safe it =20 was, especially with the BRS. I asked them about their flight experience. Seems neither of them =20 even had a license. They had ZERO time. They didn=92t even know about =20= taking a flight physical. They had found someone to insure them as they learned to fly, in =20 their new Cirrus. $15k each per year was the price tag. They were =20 OK with that. I suppose that if money is no object, then money is no =20= object. We chatted for a while, and then the older guy asked me, =93Are we =20 doing the right thing starting out with a Cirrus?=94 A sales guy by nature, I have the habit of telling people what they =20 want to hear. In this case, I just couldn=92t. I looked the guy in =20 the eye and said, =93nope.=94 =93What do you think we should do?=94 the older guy asked. I told him that he first might want to see if he could pass an FAA =20 physical. Then I pointed to a Cessna 152 sitting out on the ramp. I =20= said =93See that old Cessna 152? I think you should get about 100 =20 hours on that bird. Then, when you are WAY comfortable with that, =20 move up to the 172 right next to it. If you don=92t want to fly old =20 planes, fly the Diamond, that pretty white bird over there. Get a =20 few hundred hours in the 172 and or the Diamond, THEN think about =20 buying a new Cirrus.=94 I believe he was actually listening. He and =20= his son in law wandered off and I never saw them again. I was chatting with a sales rep for Cirrus at an air show. My wife =20 was with me so she was asking him about the BRS. I don=92t know if =20 this is Cirrus doctrine or real or fantasy or whatever =96 it=92s a data = =20 point of one, but he told us that the BRS only slows the plane down =20 to about a 1500 foot per minute decent rate, and that it is not =20 really designed to be used over flat terrain. Where it really comes =20 in handy, he said, is in the mountains, where the terrain is sloping =20 down. His rationale was that if you are descending at 1500 fpm and =20 land on a 45 degree slope, your slow down will be enough to survive. My wife, no dummy (she married me, after all) understands aviation. =20 She is working on her private pilot rating and has soloed. She =20 doesn=92t have much of a buffer between her brain and her mouth (she is =20= a math major and pretty technical). When she heard about the 1500 =20 fpm descent rate and the assumed position over a 45 degree slope yada =20= yada yada, she immediately turned to me and blurted, in front of the =20 Cirrus sales guy, =93Sounds like Bullshit to me!=94 Thank you, Dear. So Lancair has a new propjet that cruises at almost 400 kts. Cool. =20= The BRS can=92t take any more than about 165 kias. Therefore, IMHO, =20 the chances of a pilot becoming incapacitated, and having his wife or =20= girl friend or child or whoever is in the right seat, immediately =20 taking control of the aircraft and slowing it to 165 and then =20 deploying the BRS that would allow the plane to descend at 1500 fpm =20 onto a 45 degree slope so that all could survive=85..seems a stretch, =20= on a good day. I agree that the BRS sells planes. It is marketing, rather than =20 reality. Image over substance. AND we all know that what keeps =20 airplanes aloft has nothing to do with the aerodynamics of flight =96 =20= lift, drag, etc. Neither does it have anything to do with money. =20 Money does not keep planes aloft. Kitchen Clearance (KC) is what =20 keeps planes aloft =96 the wife=92s permission/consent makes things =20 positively fly! Therefore, if the wife says =93yes,=94 then the plane flies. If she =20 doesn=92t say yes, it doesn=92t. So, based on the FACT that a BRS is totally marketing and that it =20 really doesn=92t serve any purpose what-so-ever in actuality, I =20 recommend that Lancair market their new propjet with the BRS. I also =20= recommend they they not actually install the chute, since it only =20 adds weight and doesn=92t actually save anyone. But they need to =20 install a big ass handle, with a label that says =93Pull This Handle =20 for Ultimate Safety (PTHUS).=94 It won=92t actually DO anything (very =20= much like a real BRS) but it makes people feel much better and truly =20 does sell airplanes. Just my two cents. John Hafen PS =96 There was no farmer=92s daughter. That was just =93marketing.=94 = =20 Kind of like a BRS. --Apple-Mail-1-484953616 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 John:

I like your wife.=A0 I call = BS also!

The = truth is that the chute works rather well.=A0 The 1500 fpm thing is not = accurate.=A0 It is designed to lower the aircraft onto flat terrain at a = slow enough speed that the gear absorbs the vast amount of the impact = energy.=A0 I can't recall the actual descent rate but I think 500fpm = (about 8 feet per second) is about right.=A0 That's a very reasonable = rate.=A0 As a comparison, the Shuttle must be landed at less than 9 fps = vertical rate.)=A0 =A0The chute works pretty doggone well as has been = attested several times now.=A0 The big problem is descending into water = where the gear doesn't absorb the impact.

It is not unusual for = NO-time pilots to buy a Cirrus. I think there are more logical = approaches, but it's not all that unusual, either.=A0 It's not unlike = the guy who builds a Lancair before he learns to fly.=A0 It happens.=A0 = We have to admit that the game has changed.=A0 It's no longer the ONLY = way to learn to come up through the ranks.=A0 I know several pilots who = learned in a Bonanza.=A0 Heck, Arthur Godfrey got his initial Private = Certificate in a single-pilot DC-3.

Walter



On Aug 14, = 2007, at 4:52 AM, John Hafen wrote:

I was cleaning out = one of my hangars the other day as two guys wandered up and = enthusiastically inquired about renting a hangar.=A0 Seems it was a = father-in-law/son-in-law duo that had just come into money from selling = a company.=A0 Now, naturally, it was time to rush out and buy a = =93Technically Advanced Airplane.=94

=A0

They had the Cirrus sale all lined up but the Cirrus sales = guy told them they really should have a hangar for their new bird.=A0 So = they went looking (=93Here, hangar hangar hangar=85=85=94=A0 Damn, = suckers don=92t just grow on trees!)

=A0

Both of the gents, but especially the younger one, = positively effused about the capabilities of the new Cirrus and how = absolutely safe it was, especially with the = BRS.

=A0

I asked them about their flight experience.=A0 Seems = neither of them even had a license.=A0 They had ZERO time.=A0 They = didn=92t even know about taking a flight = physical.

They had found someone to insure them as they = learned to fly, in their new Cirrus.=A0 $15k each per year was the price = tag.=A0 They were OK with that.=A0 I suppose that if money is no object, = then money is no object.

We chatted for a while, and then the older guy = asked me, =93Are we doing the right thing starting out with a = Cirrus?=94

A sales guy by nature, I have the habit of = telling people what they want to hear.=A0 In this case, I just = couldn=92t.=A0 I looked the guy in the eye and said, = =93nope.=94

=93What do you think we should do?=94 the older = guy asked.

I told him that he first might want to see if he = could pass an FAA physical.=A0 Then I pointed to a Cessna 152 sitting = out on the ramp.=A0 I said =93See that old Cessna 152?=A0 I think you = should get about 100 hours on that bird.=A0 Then, when you are WAY = comfortable with that, move up to the 172 right next to it.=A0 If you = don=92t want to fly old planes, fly the Diamond, that pretty white bird = over there.=A0 Get a few hundred hours in the 172 and or the Diamond, = THEN think about buying a new Cirrus.=94=A0 I believe he was actually = listening.=A0 He and his son in law wandered off and I never saw them = again.

=A0

I was chatting with a sales rep for Cirrus at an air show.=A0= My wife was with me so she was asking him about the BRS.=A0 I don=92t = know if this is Cirrus doctrine or real or fantasy or whatever =96 it=92s = a data point of one, but he told us that the BRS only slows the plane = down to about a 1500 foot per minute decent rate, and that it is not = really designed to be used over flat terrain.=A0 Where it really comes = in handy, he said, is in the mountains, where the terrain is sloping = down.=A0 His rationale was that if you are descending at 1500 fpm and = land on a 45 degree slope, your slow down will be enough to = survive.

My wife, no dummy (she married me, after all) = understands aviation.=A0 She is working on her private pilot rating and = has soloed.=A0 She doesn=92t have much of a buffer between her brain and = her mouth (she is a math major and pretty technical).=A0 When she heard = about the 1500 fpm descent rate and the assumed position over a 45 = degree slope yada yada yada, she immediately turned to me and blurted, = in front of the Cirrus sales guy, =93Sounds like Bullshit to = me!=94

=A0

Thank you, Dear.

=A0

So Lancair has a new propjet that cruises at almost 400 = kts.=A0 Cool. =A0=A0The BRS can=92t take any more than about 165 kias.=A0 = Therefore, IMHO, the chances of a pilot becoming incapacitated, and = having his wife or girl friend or child or whoever is in the right seat, = immediately taking control of the aircraft and slowing it to 165 and = then deploying the BRS that would allow the plane to descend at 1500 fpm = onto a 45 degree slope so that all could survive=85..seems a stretch, on = a good day.

I agree that the BRS sells planes.=A0 It is = marketing, rather than reality.=A0 Image over substance.=A0 AND we all = know that what keeps airplanes aloft has nothing to do with the = aerodynamics of flight =96 lift, drag, etc.=A0 Neither does it have = anything to do with money.=A0 Money does not keep planes aloft.=A0 = Kitchen Clearance (KC) is what keeps planes aloft =96 the wife=92s = permission/consent makes things positively = fly!=A0

=A0

Therefore, if the wife says =93yes,=94 then the plane = flies.=A0 If she doesn=92t say yes, it = doesn=92t.

So, based on the FACT that a BRS is totally = marketing and that it really doesn=92t serve any purpose what-so-ever in = actuality, I recommend that Lancair market their new propjet with the = BRS.=A0 I also recommend they they not actually install the chute, since = it only adds weight and doesn=92t actually save anyone.=A0 But they need = to install a big ass handle, with a label that says =93Pull This Handle = for Ultimate Safety (PTHUS).=94=A0 It won=92t actually DO anything (very = much like a real BRS) but it makes people feel much better and truly = does sell airplanes.

Just my two = cents.

=A0

John = Hafen

=A0

PS =96 There was no farmer=92s daughter.=A0 That was just = =93marketing.=94=A0 Kind of like a = BRS.

=A0


= --Apple-Mail-1-484953616--