X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 01:48:18 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.6] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.2) with ESMTP id 1222007 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:05:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.6; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.5.) id q.3b0.4826a9b (39955) for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 07:04:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <3b0.4826a9b.31da53d7@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 07:04:55 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Alternator no-load voltage X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1151924695" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5318 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1151924695 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/2006 11:27:03 P.M. Central Standard Time, elippse@sbcglobal.net writes: I did a test on a Nippondenso alternator the other day. Its no-load voltage with 13.2V on the field and spun at 3000rpm was 40.2V. That's average voltage; its 3-phase rectified peaks are higher. The alternator's pulley OD is 2.75", and the pulley on the starter ring-gear is about 9.5". This means that its output at 2700 rpm is about 125V. Have any of you measured the time constant of your OV crowbar? I would think that it would have a filter in the trigger circuit to prevent false triggering on transients, so there is probably several milliseconds from the appearance of an OV event until the crowbar activates. There is probably a several millisecond L/R field time constant for the decay of the field current. If one of you has the means to test this total loop, it would be interesting to see just how long this magnitude of OV would be present at the alternator output. Keep in mind that there has to be an overvoltage existing on the main buss before it can be detected. I have queried Exide about the L-R-C time constants of a typical 25AH lead-acid battery, and its reaction to a very brief high-voltage transient but have not yet received a reply. Consider: a lead-acid battery generates voltage by an electrochemical reaction, and is charged by the reverse reaction. Wouldn't an electrochemical reaction of ion exchange on the cell walls take a finite amount of time? I wouldn't think it would be on the order of the light-speed of electricity flowing in a conductor. I would hazard a guess that any sinking of a short-duration transient would be more due to battery capacitance than to being through absorption by the chemical reaction. The inductance in the leads from the battery to the buss would also add an additional time delay. There is nothing instaneous in electricity. Even the thought-to-be instantaneity of doppler radar isn't. The processor counts cycles over a fixed gate period, which yields the range change, so its apparent effective time, with constant range-rate, is in the middle of the count period, and the range-rate is range per count-period. So! How long would a 125 V transient from an alternator exist on the buss? Long enough to damage some fine avionics? Paul, Maybe you should direct your question to Bob Nuckolls or Bill Bainbridge. Using B&C's alternator, regulator and battery have resulted in no damage to my fine avionics. Also, check this: _http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/9003_ins.pdf_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/9003_ins.pdf) where the OV protection occurs in milliseconds, and this: _http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bltinreg.pdf_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bltinreg.pdf) Most modern fine avionics have supply voltage regulators that protect them from spikes. Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96 Aurora, IL (KARR) Abnegate Exigencies! -------------------------------1151924695 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 7/2/2006 11:27:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 elippse@sbcglobal.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>  I=20 did a test on a Nippondenso alternator the other day. Its no-load voltage=20= with=20 13.2V on the field and spun at 3000rpm was 40.2V. That's average volt= age;=20 its 3-phase rectified peaks are higher. The alternator's pulley OD is 2.75= ",=20 and the pulley on the starter ring-gear is about 9.5". This means that its= =20 output at 2700 rpm is about 125V. Have any of you measured the t= ime=20 constant of your OV crowbar? I would think that it would have a filter in=20= the=20 trigger circuit to prevent false triggering on transients, so there is=20 probably several milliseconds from the appearance of an OV event until the= =20 crowbar activates. There is probably a several millisecond L/R field time=20 constant for the decay of the field current. If one of you has the me= ans=20 to test this total loop, it would be interesting to see just how long this= =20 magnitude of OV would be present at the alternator output. Keep in mind th= at=20 there has to be an overvoltage existing on the main buss before it ca= n be=20 detected. I have queried Exide about the L-R-C time constants of a typical= =20 25AH lead-acid battery, and its reaction to a very brief high-voltage=20 transient but have not yet received a reply. Consider: a lead-ac= id=20 battery generates voltage by an electrochemical reaction, and is charged b= y=20 the reverse reaction. Wouldn't an electrochemical reaction of ion=20 exchange on the cell walls take a finite amount of time? I wouldn't t= hink=20 it would be on the order of the light-speed of electricity flowing in= a=20 conductor. I would hazard a guess that any sinking of a short-duration=20 transient would be more due to battery capacitance than to being=20 through absorption by the chemical reaction. The inductance in the le= ads=20 from the battery to the buss would also add an additional time delay. Ther= e is=20 nothing instaneous in electricity. Even the thought-to-be instantaneity of= =20 doppler radar isn't. The processor counts cycles over a fixed gate period,= =20 which yields the range change, so its apparent effective time, w= ith=20 constant range-rate, is in the middle of the count period, and the range-r= ate=20 is range per count-period. So! How long would a 125 V transient from=20= an=20 alternator exist on the buss? Long enough to damage some fine=20 avionics?
Paul,
 
Maybe you should direct your question to Bob Nuckolls or Bill=20 Bainbridge.
 
Using B&C's alternator, regulator and battery have resulted in= no=20 damage to my fine avionics. 
 
Also, check this:
 
http://www.aeroel= ectric.com/articles/9003_ins.pdf
 
where the OV protection occurs in milliseconds, and this:
 
http://www.aeroel= ectric.com/articles/bltinreg.pdf
 
Most modern fine avionics have supply voltage regulators that protect t= hem=20 from spikes.
 
 =20
 
Scott Krueger=20 AKA Grayhawk
Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96
Aurora, IL=20 (KARR)

Abnegate Exigencies!
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