Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #27613
From: Brent Regan <brent@regandesigns.com>
Sender: Marvin Kaye <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Approved Weights for Lancair IVP/IVPTs
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:14:44 -0500
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
My thanks to Roberto d'Enginero for providing the calculations that substantiate the points that I was trying to make in my previous post, those being:

1)  You can load an aircraft well past its listed gross weight and it will still fly.
2) The more weight you add the less safe the situation.
3) You cannot fly an airplane with a stall speed greater than its maneuvering speed Va.

Whether the ultimate gross weight is 18,000 or 28,500 pounds is irrelevant to the point. In the spirit of Bob's post I should point out that Bob is using the wing lift and the gross weight interchangeably. This is not correct (I'll take those quarters back). Using the 18,000 pound number as the ultimate gross weight is, by design, calculated to be conservative. As Bob pointed out, the load carried IN the wings (including the wing structure) is not factored . Also not considered is the lift generated by the fuselage, the vertical component of the propeller thrust at high alpha and the effect of temperature on the composite structure.  Bob's assertion that the wings will clap at 18,000 pounds gross is very probably inaccurate and would require empirical determination. Perhaps Roberto d'Testpilot would volunteer.

Bob writes "
Brent continues with the mythical 200% (8.8G) ultimate load factor, which doesn't exist and never has!"

Ouch, this one is gonna hurt. I would direct you to the Lancair published flyer circa 1992 attached.  Next to G Loading (ultimate) you will see the "mythical" +8.8. Also note the 2,900 pound gross weight and 82 gallons of fuel.

Bob also writes "
My apologies to the persons named, it's not the purpose of my posting to embarrass anyone."  Not to worry, I am offended by people with malicious intent , not by ones who are well meaning but misinformed. I suspect the only one you have embarrassed is yourself.

People who live in false premiss(es) shouldn't throw conclusions.

My theory is this. The original IV was designed with a 2,900 lb gross and a 2.0 to 1 safety factor.  A IV wing weighs about 180 Lbs all up or 360 Lbs the pair and both will carry 492 Lbs of fuel (original 82 gallons) for a total of 852 pounds of wing and fuel and the balance of 2048 pounds in the fuselage. It is the fuselage that is trying snap off the wings so if you reduce the factor of safety to ultimate failure from 2.0 to 1.5 (Part 23.303 spam can margins) you get a new fuselage weight of 2731 lbs. Add back the wing weight and you get  3583 Lbs gross weight. Interesting close to the 3550 now published.

The increase in gross weight from 2,900 lbs to 3,550 lbs has come at the cost of a reduction in the factor  of safety from ~2.0 to ~1.5. and an increase in stall speeds.

Lancair DID do an empirical wing strength test, back when the earth was still cooling, and as I recall (and I am probably wrong) the wing failed at ~11 Gs.  This would correspond to a fuselage weight of 22,528 and a gross weight of  23,380 lbs. Factor in fuselage lift and vertical thrust component and 28,500 isn't so far off the mark. However, a test IS the best way to know for sure so, Roberto, if you want your quarter, do the test and send me the results. If the wings come off at 23,250 Lbs (half way between our numbers) take off weight, you win.

Is a gross weight of 3,550 Lbs safe? Safety is relative and if you load your plane more than the situation will allow your relatives will find out.

Regards
Brent Regan
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