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Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2001:8003:8809:f400:48ed:a3e8:1a32:88c7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-2129dc21b5csm27057165ad.227.2024.11.22.23.21.48 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:21:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CB53B13D-C352-4CAD-9EFC-AFF4DD3BBF18" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3818.100.11.1.3\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure in Renesis Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 15:21:35 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <85D69226-BD58-4E4C-B04C-62A0C5BAF1A9@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3818.100.11.1.3) X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL 0.500 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain DMARC_PASS -0.1 DMARC pass policy FREEMAIL_FROM 0.001 Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 0.001 Good reputation (+3) RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL 0.001 Mailspike good senders SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record --Apple-Mail=_CB53B13D-C352-4CAD-9EFC-AFF4DD3BBF18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Andrew. > On 23 Nov 2024, at 9:31=E2=80=AFam, Andrew Martin = andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: >=20 > Steve.=20 > I'd guess the restriction maybe from your oil filter AN10 hose combo. = The pressures we are working with in the mazda are really low compared = to normal hydraulics so It's really easy to restrict flow if hose size = is too small or slightly kinked. I'll check mine later but I think AN12 = is the min size to use. >=20 > The OEM filter can be small as it only has to filter oil going to your = rotors/bearings, most of the oil pumped goes straight back to sump = unfiltered after cooling. Your system is filtering all the pumped oil so = filter must be much larger to cope. These restrictions can be great = enough for you to see the low pressure at your sender. Fix the cause of = your restriction rather than change relief valve pressures. > Andrew >=20 > On Fri, 22 Nov 2024, 20:05 Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = , > wrote: >> Hi people. >>=20 >> Thanks Andrew, you were on the money with me needing to measure the = system pressures. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99d appreciate any reflections on data others have collected. >> Do these numbers for pressure drop across cooler and filter look OK? >>=20 >> I was concerned about the 50 psi pressure reading on the EFIS but = I=E2=80=99m now thinking that the sensor position is not accurately = reading oil pressure that is getting to the bearings etc. >> I=E2=80=99m thinking perhaps the bearings are seeing closer to = perhaps 65-70 psi given the smaller channel to the relief valve and = pressure sender location. >> See drawing attached. >> I=E2=80=99m considering pulling the sump off and installing an FD = relief valve (higher cracking pressure) and shimming the Pump Control = Valve to provide more oil to all systems. >> The current relief valve appears to be opening by just above 50 psi. >>=20 >> This is a Renesis Series 1 4 Port - Front Cover out via AN-10 lines = to Mocal 44 Row Cooler, then into remote K&N1002 Filter before into Oil = pedestal.=20 >> I fabricated an aluminium block over the two gallery holes. The AN-10 = line from the Filter enters directly over the gallery to the Eccentric = etc and the smaller 1/8npt feed to the RD1C gearbox directly above the = channel going straight down to the rear relief valve. >> The two holes/channels are linked by a milled tunnel which from = memory is smaller than the Channels themselves. >>=20 >> My EFIS measures Oil Pressure at the 1/8 npt port below the pedestal = and read about 58psi during the tests below, only rising a few psi as = rpm increases to 4000. >> Once temps get to 90-100C the EFIS pressure drops to about 50psi. >>=20 >>=20 >> Ground Test Oil Pressure (psi) / Temps (Celsius) >> =20 >> Pres/Temp RPM 2100 3000 4000 >> Oil Out (front Cover) 75 / 66 85 / 67 90 /69 >> Post Cooler 70 / 65 78 / 66 80 / 69 >> Post Filter 68 / 65 72 / 66 75 / 69 >> EFIS (below pedestal) 58 / 65 59 / 66 60 / = 69 >> =20 >> Pres Drop RPM 2100 3000 4000 >> Oil Cooler 5 / 65 7 / 67 10 / 69 =20= >> Oil Filter 2 / 65 4 / 66 5 / 69 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_CB53B13D-C352-4CAD-9EFC-AFF4DD3BBF18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks = Andrew.


On 23 Nov 2024, at 9:31=E2=80=AFam, Andrew Martin = andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Steve. 
I'd guess the = restriction maybe from your oil filter AN10 hose combo. The pressures we = are working with in the mazda are really low compared to normal = hydraulics so It's really easy to restrict flow if hose size is too = small or slightly kinked. I'll check mine later but I think AN12 is the = min size to use.

The = OEM filter can be small as it only has to filter oil going to your = rotors/bearings, most of the oil pumped goes straight back to sump = unfiltered after cooling. Your system is filtering all the pumped oil so = filter must be much larger to cope. These restrictions can be great = enough for you to see the low pressure at your sender. Fix the cause of = your restriction rather than change relief valve pressures.
Andrew

On Fri, 22 Nov 2024, 20:05 Stephen = Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com, = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi = people.

Thanks Andrew, you were on the money with me = needing to measure the system pressures.

I=E2=80=99= d appreciate any reflections on data others have collected.
Do = these numbers for pressure drop across cooler and filter look = OK?

I was concerned about the 50 psi pressure = reading on the EFIS but I=E2=80=99m now thinking that the sensor = position is not accurately reading oil pressure that is getting to the = bearings etc.
I=E2=80=99m thinking perhaps the bearings are = seeing closer to perhaps 65-70 psi given the smaller channel to the = relief valve and pressure sender location.
See drawing = attached.
I=E2=80=99m considering pulling the sump off and = installing an FD relief valve (higher cracking pressure) and shimming = the Pump Control Valve to provide more oil to all systems.
The = current relief valve appears to be opening by just above 50 = psi.

This is a Renesis Series 1 4 Port - Front = Cover out via AN-10 lines to Mocal 44 Row Cooler, then into remote = K&N1002 Filter before into Oil pedestal. 
I = fabricated an aluminium block over the two gallery holes. The AN-10 line = from the Filter enters directly over the gallery to the Eccentric etc = and the smaller 1/8npt feed to the RD1C gearbox directly above the = channel going straight down to the rear relief valve.
The two = holes/channels are linked by a milled tunnel which from memory is = smaller than the Channels themselves.

My EFIS = measures Oil Pressure at the 1/8 npt port below the pedestal and read = about 58psi during the tests below, only rising a few psi as rpm = increases to 4000.
Once temps get to 90-100C the EFIS pressure = drops to about 50psi.


Ground = Test Oil Pressure = (psi)  / Temps (Celsius)

 

Pres/Temp RPM 2100 3000 = 4000
Oil Out (front = Cover)      = 75 / 66 85 / = 67 90 = /69
Post = Cooler           &n= bsp;       70 / 65 78 / 66 80 / = 69
Post = Filter           &n= bsp;        68 / 65 72 / 66 75 / = 69
EFIS (below pedestal) =  58 / 65 =   59 / 66 =    60 / 69

 

Pres = Drop RPM 2100 3000 = 4000
Oil Cooler 5 / 65 7 / 67 10 / = 69            =     
Oil Filter 2 / = 65 4 / 66 5 / = 69


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