X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 15 [X] X-KAS-Score: 15 [X] From: "Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au" Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com ([209.85.128.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 372168 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:02:45 -0400 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.54; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id y74-20020a1c7d4d000000b00322f53b9bbfso814377wmc.3 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=martinag-com-au.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LK/UlrJbGxLnp2lthf8iH7RgsfLKShfzIbP4N8eAtuA=; b=wW0NG2RtrHYTpnBbIdy5LwHJcnNHTAZMdXICuCUq6AUD4+20vOxbuTV1nLqZq9HpFt HXrI9oYeV+eoOQ4Gq9oSoAGuKFah2SqSwlocJYieJtw0h0BfbvK9WGpB+yzuIF2aaG1g DvMEifvjgZRt/UYO1apZ78m2TS6xeFM51v/1qfthHnzG+rdsKXZFONYuhSzRi27Aqoxg 9OGtOq1qBY8pDHY+mAruezpoxokaN5oE9KkOki3Ie+Ehg/NpvklJsnp5vSb1yMxn7axG zLCatT8eArZ2D4IMPP8v0dxjgODZq1QlQmIdZPZVmqpS0sMJKmEqR30gn0OAVl351AJ6 xBbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=LK/UlrJbGxLnp2lthf8iH7RgsfLKShfzIbP4N8eAtuA=; b=dDZ9ZWSgDSW5+///zaA4bZuaJEQUNXX5FQ/tczs4fIqAL7eeTM30/vRt8Jr6vWz4Ep hy1K84v5VrvPdqP2pCMNU5zt8Z9ywyEDB2GI8ZinMSkWVZjCRHGvkxU7jS/w92usFmm4 rHHE5Ub+a9Ay2H7fzXmxTt5JXJmlzFPkr+y8KeLdE0uM9kXvxNTxKet3fJ8k/ong/N/n lcQJq1FN3BMKrs2aIMviiVDUTNdd4GRG77oZhWlesKLJEvwALi6MGGUtdkJ8JcafqY7/ 7RM2ITJVxhsQM5JjabVzf7sRZPcWNS4ZobiZuaRoRLjTYYYnNtMFsXPQTkVl8OVxIEjB 0fDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533xGMgePB09WgipZUjMYLq5FxP6KryoL6F57WDPCi3PMX3rY97E azlYzRxnLt9eloFr1bm+IOQq18AZ0JUXl+YI7QtKo8Q/3Ngl X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwepEr3l3doTQIePx7gHAy5F3Fbz2FWX/+HNJE67/aLfuR4NCveX1LpVrylgT2/zYivd1AGfrZsDTgWHFg/ySE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2282:: with SMTP id i124mr2154947wmi.164.1634601748700; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:02:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:02:17 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Ag Ops To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000094b6fa05cea96028" --00000000000094b6fa05cea96028 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil Ok lets design it. I reckon we have both been thinking along much the same lines. You thinking rotary wing, something the size of a R22 or smaller? I reckon vertical mount rotary engine, planetary then differential gearset to give counter rotating rotor drive. Can all fit in a very compact package directly above the hopper. Planetary should have no fixed gears but connected to pancake style axial flux motor/generators that form the gearbox housing, control the output ratio and replace alternaror and starter on the motor. no clutch is required & engine can be set to run at constant rpm. Have also considered hybrid drive of engine/generator driving counter rotating motors, easier to build but ends up heavy. We have already helped development of agopengps, which we use on our machines for application control, mapping & autosteer. Its not autonomous just yet, but is open source, farmers helping farmers is the motto. would just rewrite it into a specific operating system for this application with 3d maps. I like the idea of keeping it all open source. That way if anyone uses or copies then they take responsibility. Plus ideas flow between the crazies for superfast development. Andrew On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 at 4:53 am, 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Andrew, > > Yeah, that is the current legislation, but with > demand that will change =E2=80=93 I think. Here in Oz, regardless farmer= s will > disregard the directives as CASA has not got the resources to police. Ev= en > if reported, we are simply spraying water!@!! > > That damage sounds bad, have been called on to fix the > fibreglass on the local ag sprayer to keep him in the air,--- No I must b= e > dreaming, paint covers a lot of repairs!!! > > Currently here any unmanned aircraft must be fully certified if over 25 > KG!!! That will kill all and sundry but under experimental??? --- wil= l > be interesting as CASA fights to keep authority. > > So far great season here and late with wet cold conditions. Fear we > will lose much to a wet harvest which happens every 20 years or so. Stil= l, > farming is a terminal disease, so we keep on. > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, October 18, 2021 11:07 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Planetary re-drive? > > > > He Neil > > Way to go with the ag drones. Just a pity cant do commercial ops with Exp= . > > Btw. 2 Ag Thrush's and a C180 damaged on our farm when the hangar > collapsed during a cyclone in April. Bit annoying. > > Good to see you still developing. I still got my original 20b that will b= e > looking for an airframe when time allows. > > Andrew > > > > On Sun, 17 Oct. 2021, 5:56 am 12348ung@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Marc, > I am the only one making redrives at all recently. > Currently teaming up with a partner who has access to all maching gear to > make another version. Why another version? Well it appears that the for= d > planetries and g/box parts in the US are now superseded and difficult to > source so the cost goes up. In my search to find an alternative I am now > to get a planetry from the GM automatics as there are thousands of them i= n > OZ and naturally reasonably priced. The ratio is approx. 3:1 which is > ideal. > Planetry sourced, the rest of the redrive is also undergoing a > rethink as to cut cost. Currently just the prop shaft cost $1000 if I ta= ke > 10 at a time! Singularly the cost is $1500! Looking at getting one cast > instead of CNC. The housing cost me nearly $1200 for a very "pretty" CNC > job, so again casting is much cheaper. A standard planetry is mandatory, > as to change the ratio again the cost is horrendous. Whatever is closest > to 3:1 will have to do. > Input shaft will have to be made as I prefer a sold unit over a "pinned" > unit. Again cost, but necessary. > Cushion drive is mainly cast and CNC to finish -- not difficult to set up > for CNC and 10 of will not break the bank. > The mounting plate will be cast from Magnesium alloy rather than the 1/2 > inch 6061 alloy plate. Again cost, lightness and strength. > > The end result? Cannot tell at this stage but without this progression, > there will be no redrives available. The experimental market is no reaso= n > the go into the cost of producing redrives, but the real demand looming i= s > the Agricultural drone crop spraying market. Here the need is for high > power / weight engines (mazda) and therefore a redrive (affordable). Muc= h > legislation involved, but under the experimental banner that all alters. > This market is huge if a drone that can lift up to 500 KG can be made. > Even 200 KG is marketable which is a single rotor mazda. The "electric" > charge cannot compete I feel with the power to weight of the Mazda. > Looking at a twin rotor helicopter mazda powered. Now that will > get the natives talking! Here in Oz a self propelled crop sprayer is way > over $500,000. Then it cannot spray on boggy ground. Spot spraying is > costly, and timing is critical, so drones will come as lifting capacity > arrives. CASA (aust) and the FAA have many regs regarding spraying > chemical by air, but as demand increases the rules will be forced to > change, I think. Regardless the market is there which will benefit the > experimental aviation sector. Built on farm, used on farm, even if only = to > spray plant deficiencies and fungicide , the market is there. > Hopefully it will all happen, but first a redrive. > Neil. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 8:22 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Planetary re-drive? > > Who is making a 13b fit 3:1 planetary now-a-days? That is since I can=E2= =80=99t > get a Mistral unit! Need for a 20b. > M > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag --00000000000094b6fa05cea96028 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil
Ok lets design it. I reckon w= e have both been thinking along much the same lines.

You thinking rotary wing, something the size o= f a R22 or smaller?
I reckon vertical mount rotary e= ngine, planetary then differential gearset to give counter rotating rotor d= rive. Can all fit in a very compact package directly above the hopper.=C2= =A0
Planetary should have no fixed gears but connect= ed to pancake style axial flux motor/generators that form the gearbox housi= ng, control the output ratio and replace alternaror and starter on the moto= r. no clutch is required & engine can be set to run at constant rpm.
Have also considered hybrid drive of engine/generator = driving counter rotating motors, easier to build but ends up heavy.
We have already helped development of agopengps, which we u= se on our machines for application control, mapping & autosteer. Its no= t autonomous just yet, but is open source, farmers helping farmers is the m= otto. would just rewrite it into a specific operating system for this appli= cation with 3d maps.

I l= ike the idea of keeping it all open source. That way if anyone uses or copi= es then they take responsibility. Plus ideas flow between the crazies for s= uperfast development.

An= drew

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 at 4:53 am, 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Andrew,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Yeah, that is the current legislation, but with demand that will = change =E2=80=93 I think.=C2=A0 Here in Oz, regardless farmers will disrega= rd the directives as CASA has not got the resources to police.=C2=A0 Even i= f reported, we are simply spraying water!@!!

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 That damage sounds b= ad,=C2=A0 have been called on to fix the fibreglass on the local ag sprayer= to keep him in the air,--- No I must be dreaming, paint covers a lot of re= pairs!!!

Currently here any unmanned aircraft must be fully certified if over 25 K= G!!!=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 That will kill all and sundry but under experimental= ??? ---=C2=A0 will be interesting as CASA fights to keep authority. =

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0So far great season here and late with wet cold condition= s.=C2=A0 Fear we will lose much to a wet harvest which happens every 20 yea= rs or so.=C2=A0 Still, farming is a terminal disease, so we keep on.=

Neil.<= u>

=C2=A0=

From: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2= 021 11:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Planetary re-drive?

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Marc,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am the only one m= aking redrives at all recently.=C2=A0 Currently teaming up with a partner w= ho has access to all maching gear to make another version.=C2=A0 Why anothe= r version?=C2=A0 Well it appears that the ford planetries and g/box parts i= n the US are now superseded and difficult to source so the cost goes up.=C2= =A0 In my search to find an alternative I am now to get a planetry from the= GM automatics as there are thousands of them in OZ and naturally reasonabl= y priced.=C2=A0 The ratio is approx. 3:1 which is ideal.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Planetry sourced, the rest of the redrive is also undergoing = a rethink as to cut cost.=C2=A0 Currently just the prop shaft cost $1000 if= I take 10 at a time! Singularly the cost is $1500! Looking at getting one = cast instead of CNC.=C2=A0 The housing cost me nearly $1200 for a very &quo= t;pretty" CNC job, so again casting is much cheaper.=C2=A0 A standard = planetry is mandatory, as to change the ratio again the cost is horrendous.= =C2=A0 Whatever is closest to 3:1 will have to do.
Input shaft will have= to be made as I prefer a sold unit over a "pinned" unit.=C2=A0 A= gain cost, but necessary.
Cushion drive is mainly cast and CNC to finish= -- not difficult to set up for CNC and 10 of will not break the bank.
T= he mounting plate will be cast from Magnesium alloy rather than the 1/2 inc= h 6061 alloy plate.=C2=A0 Again cost, lightness and strength.

The en= d result? Cannot tell at this stage but without this progression, there wil= l be no redrives available.=C2=A0 The experimental market is no reason the = go into the cost of producing redrives, but the real demand looming is the = Agricultural drone crop spraying market.=C2=A0 Here the need is for high po= wer / weight engines (mazda) and therefore a redrive (affordable).=C2=A0 Mu= ch legislation involved, but under the experimental banner that all alters.= =C2=A0 This market is huge if a drone that can lift up to 500 KG can be mad= e.=C2=A0 Even 200 KG is marketable which is a single rotor mazda.=C2=A0 The= "electric" charge cannot compete I feel with the power to weight= of the Mazda.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Looking at a twin roto= r helicopter mazda powered.=C2=A0 Now that will get the natives talking!=C2= =A0 Here in Oz a self propelled crop sprayer is way over $500,000.=C2=A0 Th= en it cannot spray on boggy ground.=C2=A0 Spot spraying is costly, and timi= ng is critical, so drones will come as lifting capacity arrives.=C2=A0 CASA= (aust) and the FAA have many regs regarding spraying chemical by air, but = as demand increases the rules will be forced to change, I think.=C2=A0 Rega= rdless the market is there which will benefit the experimental aviation sec= tor.=C2=A0 Built on farm, used on farm, even if only to spray plant deficie= ncies and fungicide , the market is there.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 H= opefully it will all happen, but first a redrive.
Neil.

-----Orig= inal Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 8:22 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Planetary re= -drive?

Who is making a 13b fit 3:1 planetary now-a-days? That is si= nce I can=E2=80=99t get a Mistral unit! Need for a 20b.
M

--
= Homepage:=C2=A0 htt= p://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0= http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


-= -
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--
=
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
--00000000000094b6fa05cea96028--