X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f52.google.com ([209.85.208.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 156622 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 00:22:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.52; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f52.google.com with SMTP id dj21so5157256edb.0 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:22:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=0UDB1HkYEVMz9SYGcduGDCzfxTrM2gbyiIQ8WAZJQLk=; b=CvOFwhCoAZwivbyNUjGPX45VglqAvB9e72UYZXVHVXQgaZKKDbg7XLma9vyb5tN8ri FW63KUaaPtBfyb7XeS0UIWqAVtzWPObOJob/RanI5thvX+4nXsdZLp/00xyTVzIpS0ub dy9yarDjkPYgLJaWOgC3tcKzdNmUA8dLS/pV48HvhRGWJeYmj+ivCYH0K2S6loXApCBR mr0nv5A6gbcCXFjmVU4SEnsJoZC0h2rS+WbBOSVWRONmICuZYpchXWVdI6RIWJsKthyZ YaQUROHVVyJD+BF/pryR2FBNKxla9Q9si8PlC8LDho+amFW/n7lKamneHuMN7pLHV2Xg Ec7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=0UDB1HkYEVMz9SYGcduGDCzfxTrM2gbyiIQ8WAZJQLk=; b=c19YuOiL0d+LkqMg6TO4SB4i/pWLwtK6ZEi5+VHaWMAD+yvmKlUEx9VJJ1zm8cedBn ahVGnLlumQ0irc1CSm+Qj/pktzTabnH1DER9c1SLunBl0Z7Wk9Ee6ON80dj21/vQD2FW ftuKbqZDr2AqhUiElY9I+/jidbl7jeyvoeZFF8JKRj7xQu7hfrF0kwkLGct14FO/4cNN uG3JdrxxsM8ymcAnZ4QRSByPx940Wd9afmGP9iWe5PyzL1X56hUrj0eohHZPGbnu/Asx Q7fTc6ohmI1Fr+PQEUZc6ip/rVgZxg2uuLHzB9hrnMODmzAoAuP+w/avtaJIN0i0Qs5y tddw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530t+a0EGo4/BcS4gg9rkeUrVBX8vRXR09+VMquXyKxEkGbIi32r Gi0+nyg04J9YSb2tqs/Qtpadk1x4oeU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw44fJ5OJVfj5ifVoNaTgNwAoxS0q0OfrRYOL3QxFA45PWW1aFYYCN/M7GgQ5sPgT3HMp4zfA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:ca44:: with SMTP id j4mr50980080edt.203.1626927734374; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.116] ([160.226.139.189]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h17sm11614257edv.5.2021.07.21.21.22.12 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-50221579-1AF5-4422-815A-FA83BE47DDFC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Inlet cooling article Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 06:22:10 +0200 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) --Apple-Mail-50221579-1AF5-4422-815A-FA83BE47DDFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know only from the cooling book of the late Paul Lamar Has purchased one from him when was on his rotaryforum years ago. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/coolYourWankel.php Le Roux Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 > On 22 Jul 2021, at 01:16, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThis is the first time I've heard of Ed=E2=80=99s workbook! > All a bit late for me at this stage, but would be interested in reading th= rough it as I=E2=80=99ve still git sooooo much to learn. >=20 > Steve Iz >=20 >> On 22 Jul 2021, at 4:26 am, Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net wrote: >>=20 >> It=E2=80=99s all in Ed=E2=80=99s cooling workbook. J >> =20 >> Bobby >> =20 >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 >> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 3:19 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Inlet cooling article >> =20 >> Yep, as I see it we have at least three factors: >> 1) Flow (speed) of coolant through engine optimized for maximum heat remo= val. >> 2) Flow of coolant through radiator optimized for maximum heat dissipatio= n. >> 3) Flow of air (speed and mass) through radiator optimized for maximum he= at removal. >>=20 >> 2 should be matched to 1 (hoses, radiator tubes, fins and size). >>=20 >> 3 should be optimized for minimum needed air mass to remove heat, and is a= chieved by optimized inlet duct or diffuser as well as outlet ducting with f= lap to minimize to only needed airflow at climb, cruise and max speeds at an= y OAT. Again, only the actually needed air flow for each condition of flight= . >>=20 >> Sounds simple, doesn't it? ;) >>=20 >> Finn >>=20 >> On 7/21/2021 1:39 PM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >> Just to add my 0.02. Like many other things, cooling is a group of compr= omises. This sounds a bit like a shade tree myth that has been around a lon= g time. >> =20 >> The myth goes if you run hot water through a radiator and measure input a= nd output temperatures (of the water), the slower the water flows through th= e radiator and more time the cooling air has to remove heat. That is shown b= y the fact the slower the flow the greater the water temperature difference b= etween intake and output of the radiator. And all of this is absolutely fac= tual. =20 >> =20 >> The problem is - that is not the complete story. The objective is to rem= ove heat from the engine, the slower flow will show greater delta T across t= he radiator - but, will not remove as much heat from the engine (the objecti= ve) per unit time - which is the true objective. However, if you increase f= low too greatly you are taking more HP to increase the flow (watch out for c= avitation) and therefore creating more heat - although increased turbulence i= n the flow may help pick up heat better and offset that to some degree. =20 >> =20 >> Additionally, some folks early-on did try to increase their flow and foun= d increased engine temp rather than less. This "proved" to them that fast f= low was not as good as slower flow. Only later was it realized that the att= empt to increase flow was by increasing water pump rotation speed which resu= lted in caviatation and actually resulted in less coolant being pumped by th= e faster rotating pump. But, it did add to the myth of slow flow cools bett= er. If that were the case, then taken to the limit - stopped flow should c= ool best.=F0=9F=98=81 >> =20 >> Again, like many things in the actual world, best cooling is dependent on= the circumstances and objectives. >> =20 >> Back to my hole >> =20 >> Ed >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "12348ung@gmail.com" >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: 7/20/2021 11:48:32 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Inlet cooling article >> =20 >> Charlie, >> No, no reference, just what I have read and also tal= king to Rad manufacturers such as BWR in Brisbane. You can check it out by p= assing your hand through a naked flame. Quickly and there is no heat transf= er. Pass slowly and you will see what the argument is. As I said the trut= h is there somewhere and as Lyn so aptly puts it =E2=80=9CI could well be w= rong=E2=80=9D..=20 >> Neil. >> =20 >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 >> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 12:25 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Inlet cooling article >> =20 >> Hi Neil, >>=20 >> Do you have a reference for that? Slowing a medium down so it has time to= absorb the heat seems to conflict with physics as I've been led to understa= nd it >>=20 >> Charlie >>=20 >> On 7/20/2021 5:01 PM, 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: >> Charlie, >> Much wisdom out there, you just have to find the truth= ! Max cooling is apparently 30 MPH, so Any faster and it does not pick up h= eat before going past. Look at big trucks, that grill is not only for looks= , they slow the air to get max cooling. If too slow they have a quite large= fan that kicks in to drag air through at 30 MPH not 100! >> As you say, what do I know =E2=80=93 I have seen too many= that do not work =E2=80=93 without any degree. >> Neil. >> =20 >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 >> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 7:07 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Inlet cooling article >> =20 >> On 7/20/2021 3:26 PM, Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote: >> Comments? >> =20 >> Subject: Inlet cooling article >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF https://www.kitplanes.com/down-to-earth-40/ >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >> I remember the Laboda article about enlarging their cooling inlets, but n= ot many of the details. >> This: >> The plenum receives air through two circular air intake ducts behind the p= ropeller and squeezes it, Bernoulli-style, so that the air accelerates acros= s the cylinders and between their fins, carrying the heat back, down and out= an outflow "gate" at the back and bottom of the engine area, forward of the= firewall. >>=20 >> Is contrary to everything I've ever read about cooling efficiently. Faste= r relative flow will always have higher drag, all else being equal. Accelera= ting the air even faster than freestream just sounds crazy. My understanding= is that there's a balancing act between having the room in an a/c to 'recov= er' (increase) differential pressure across the heat exchanger (engine fins,= in this case), and causing too much drag from the air going through the fin= s too fast (there's aerodynamic drag in the heat exchanger, just like over t= he a/c itself). It's surprising to me that James made the plenum the way he d= id. The rest sounds like putting bandaids on stuff. The next-to-last image, o= f the final inlet, shows what appears to be a *much* smaller plenum inlet th= an the cowl ring in front of it, and a rather sharp edged lip where the plen= um starts. It looks like the air would accelerate until it hits that sharp l= ip, and immediately go turbulent, which will kill any pressure recovery and a= ctually slow flow into the cylinder fins.=20 >>=20 >> Most Lyc plenums I've seen (even the ones James made for the 4 cyl engine= s) have significant volume above the cylinders with smoothly expanding ducts= feeding the plenum. That allows the air to slow in an organized fashion, wh= ich increases *pressure*, which is what actually makes the air move through t= he fins. >>=20 >> But what do I know; I have an Economics degree.... >>=20 >> Charlie >> =20 >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Disclaimer >>=20 >> The information contained in this communication from the sender is confid= ential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized= to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that a= ny disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the con= tents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. >>=20 >> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been au= tomatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (= SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human g= enerated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find o= ut more Click Here. >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-50221579-1AF5-4422-815A-FA83BE47DDFC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know only from the cooling= book of the late Paul Lamar
Has purchased one from him when was on his r= otaryforum years ago.


Le Roux<= br>
Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach 

On 22 Jul 2021, at 0= 1:16, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt; wrote:

=EF=BB=BFThis is the first time I've heard of Ed=E2=80=99s workbook!
All a bit late for me at this stage, but would be interested in rea= ding through it as I=E2=80=99ve still git sooooo much to learn.

Steve Iz
=

On 2= 2 Jul 2021, at 4:26 am, Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

= It=E2=80=99s all in Ed=E2=80=99s cooling workbook= . = J
 
Bobby
 <= /o:p>
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 3:19 P= M
To:&= nbsp;Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: In= let cooling article
 
Yep, as I see it we have at lea= st three factors:
1) Flow (speed) of coolant through engine op= timized for maximum heat removal.
2) Flow of coolant through r= adiator optimized for maximum heat dissipation.
3) Flow of air= (speed and mass) through radiator optimized for maximum heat removal.

2 should be matched to 1 (hoses, radiator tubes, fin= s and size).

3 should be optimized for minimum n= eeded air mass to remove heat, and is achieved by optimized inlet duct or di= ffuser as well as outlet ducting with flap to minimize to only needed airflo= w at climb, cruise and max speeds at any OAT. Again, only the actually neede= d air flow for each condition of flight.

Sounds= simple, doesn't it? ;)

Finn

On 7/21/2021 1:39 PM, <= /span>eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:
Just to add my 0.= 02.  Like many other things, cooling is a group of compromises.  T= his sounds a bit like a shade tree myth that has been around a long time.
 
The myth goes if you run hot water throug= h a radiator and measure input and output temperatures (of the water), the s= lower the water flows through the radiator and more time the cooling air has= to remove heat.  That is shown by the fact the slower the flow the gre= ater the water temperature difference between intake and output of the radia= tor.  And all of this is absolutely factual.  
 
The problem is - that is not the complete story. = ; The objective is to remove heat from the engine, the slower flow will show= greater delta T across the radiator - but, will not remove as much heat fro= m the engine (the objective) per unit time - which is the true objective.&nb= sp; However, if you increase flow too greatly you are taking more HP to incr= ease the flow (watch out for cavitation) and therefore creating more heat - a= lthough increased turbulence in the flow may help pick up heat better and of= fset that to some degree.  
 
Ad= ditionally, some folks early-on did try to increase their flow and found inc= reased engine temp rather than less.  This "proved" to them that fast f= low was not as good as slower flow.  Only later was it realized that th= e attempt to increase flow was by increasing water pump rotation speed which= resulted in caviatation and actually resulted in less coolant being pumped b= y the faster rotating pump.  But, it did add to the myth of slow flow c= ools better.  If that were the case,  then taken to the limit - st= opped flow should cool best.=F0=9F=98=81
 
Again, like many things in the actual world, best cooling is d= ependent on the circumstances and objectives.
=  
Back to my hole
 
<= div class=3D"">
Ed<= /o:p>
<= o:p class=3D""> 
 
 
 
------ Original Message ------
From: "12348ung@gmail.com" <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rotary motors in airc= raft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: 7/20/2021 11:48:32 PM
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Fwd: Inlet cooling article
 
C= harlie,
       = ;            &nb= sp; No, no reference, just what I have read and also talking to Rad manufact= urers such as BWR in Brisbane.  You can check it out by passing your ha= nd through a naked flame.  Quickly and there is no heat transfer. = Pass slowly and you will see what the argument is.   As I said th= e truth is there somewhere and as Lyn so aptly puts it  =E2=80=9CI coul= d well be wrong=E2=80=9D.. 
=
Neil.
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> 
Sent:<= /b> Wednesday, July 21, 20= 21 12:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Fwd: Inlet cooling article
 
Hi Neil,<= br class=3D"">
Do you have a reference for that? Slowing a med= ium down so it has time to absorb the heat seems to conflict with physics as= I've been led to understand it

Charlie

On 7/20/2021 5:01 PM, 12348ung@gmail.com wrote:=
Charlie,
         &n= bsp;         Much wisdom out there, y= ou just have to find the truth!   Max cooling is apparently 30 MPH= , so Any faster and it does not pick up heat before going past.  Look a= t big trucks, that grill is not only for looks, they slow the air to get max= cooling.  If too slow they have a quite large fan that kicks in to dra= g air through  at 30 MPH not 100!=
  =             &nbs= p; As you say, what do I know =E2=80=93 I have seen too many that do not wor= k =E2=80=93 without any degree.
<= div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "T= imes New Roman", serif;" class=3D"">Neil.
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>&nb= sp;
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 7:07 AM
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Inlet cooling article
 
On 7/20/2021 3:26 PM, Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote:
Comments= ?
 

Subject:=  Inlet cooling article

=EF=BB=BF https://www.kitplanes.com/down-to-earth-40/<= /o:p>

= Sent from my iPhone
I remember the L= aboda article about enlarging their cooling inlets, but not many of the deta= ils.
This:
The plenum receives air through two circular air intake duc= ts behind the propeller and squeezes it, Bernoulli-style, so that the air ac= celerates across the cylinders and between their fins, carrying the heat bac= k, down and out an outflow "gate" at the back and bottom of the engine area,= forward of the firewall.

Is contrary t= o everything I've ever read about cooling efficiently. Faster relative flow w= ill always have higher drag, all else being equal. Accelerating the air even= faster than freestream just sounds crazy. My understanding is that there's a= balancing act between having the room in an a/c to 'recover' (increase) dif= ferential pressure across the heat exchanger (engine fins, in this case), an= d causing too much drag from the air going through the fins too fast (there'= s aerodynamic drag in the heat exchanger, just like over the a/c itself). It= 's surprising to me that James made the plenum the way he did. The rest soun= ds like putting bandaids on stuff. The next-to-last image, of the final inle= t, shows what appears to be a *much* smaller plenum inlet than the cowl ring= in front of it, and a rather sharp edged lip where the plenum starts. It lo= oks like the air would accelerate until it hits that sharp lip, and immediat= ely go turbulent, which will kill any pressure recovery and actually slow fl= ow into the cylinder fins. 

Most Lyc plenums I've seen (even the ones Jam= es made for the 4 cyl engines) have significant volume above the cylinders w= ith smoothly expanding ducts feeding the plenum. That allows the air to slow= in an organized fashion, which increases *pressure*, which is what actually= makes the air move through the fins.

But what d= o I know; I have an Economics degree....

Charli= e
 
<= td width=3D"55" style=3D"width: 41.25pt; border: none; padding: 9.75pt 0.75p= t 0.75pt;" class=3D"">
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Virus-free. www.avast.com=
 
 

 



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