X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f46.google.com ([209.85.208.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 102590 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:56:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.46; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f46.google.com with SMTP id i5so7431089eds.1 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:56:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=GTpOHoYx4LVNWzoyUQBjf7PU4kWeKpdV7ADGrVDHPA0=; b=Q4bGW74wvsKcfcCimXk92LuVBqHy5M3Wyp3g70xMJg/nBA9v8AnuO4n5qt77fLQl8Z q2sxNw1Z74dIjNs6PS8c+ThEk1TCcuhIdd1wLZZIlWoUQypqqalToU9YeQbJ0MIkxGyL RLb2L3wOzvYsgjnActflGW1j7Nw50n+vRkvwQ50pkE5vkwObdXqM1znWo34eOcANTiUK MrBKCJ1UeXf+68W+sEWI+e4HV7Plfzbf+Q+3x+WscVB/xJP/oOMKBAo+rAPvsbPFKUHp SevosAUFSeVi84c4Tjly1/J83SLRLvDxI8poAoBOjP3SjU1TPQAPuv9vaCK3Ww2TvgyT q2bQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=GTpOHoYx4LVNWzoyUQBjf7PU4kWeKpdV7ADGrVDHPA0=; b=qoc+giIZN+VrSX3rHlye+mQVQYyzhd+TcwQfChgLsez/Jol87VghczAHGpCuxlO3Rg hZnpBy6TQLWhlg0kTVS8fhFEb23yWg04eeQpM3EgL+S27xggH/oC4D1dMDwoX6/vVk4/ lJ4xMUFY0FA47qWFlFg6OM0j81FVwqIg0r1Z0DtPMO0chQRTTND2C+6LPTLAWnGu7Sgg JmtlQcvYt+95FH91fjZjUjAVCUNErtGQZ7kn/i7TbaZHNNChttQQcJftMY2ouIkSxVEN ngum4/E1KbiiAHJ/IsRlRaksxlVJuvDCKk3czkKNVrYe9WMCUlDxtOFmw0tWEZPRSX59 45hA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533FYIfnKf0wM7Ff/q2gdeD8UpbELRdhTneG8pQMfuZqF7CSgPMZ LA/y0IwpDjtYFRqYYg26+2xNdFcASLOFWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw11Rc3LH672tnxg/1tQfHFM/CFKuegWLacrMmfjYKUsDL9n2BX6TNhXEn586ncZ893KVjLSA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c84a:: with SMTP id g10mr6706132edt.326.1624384573981; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.116] ([160.226.139.189]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i6sm6303822ejr.68.2021.06.22.10.56.12 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D8E0C5BF-9386-4FEB-BAAE-ECBDC9F0DA3E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Warning: Electrical rant mode Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 19:56:10 +0200 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) --Apple-Mail-D8E0C5BF-9386-4FEB-BAAE-ECBDC9F0DA3E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks =F0=9F=99=8F Charlie Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 > On 22 Jun 2021, at 16:49, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > You can sign up for the Aeroelectric list in forum format or via email del= ivery here: > http://forums.matronics.com/profile.php?mode=3Dregister&sid=3D176edac1f9dd= 12aaebbb8d5e9823a520 > The patriarch of the list is Bob Nuckolls; website here: > http://aeroelectric.com/ > You can order a print copy of the book here: > https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECCatalog.html > The downloadable version is a bit tricky to find, but here's a link that w= ill let you download the book by individual chapters: > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/ > A seemingly endless trove of info on his articles page: > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html >=20 > Good hunting... > ;-) >=20 >=20 > On 6/21/2021 10:48 PM, Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wro= te: >>=20 >> Mmmm ......Charlie thanks for pointing =E2=98=9D=EF=B8=8F that out. >> Is there a =E2=80=9Clink=E2=80=9D that you can post perhaps of the (AEC )= Aeroelectric Connection email list ? >> Le Roux >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >> Le Roux Breytenbach=20 >>=20 >>> On 21 Jun 2021, at 21:08, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF We don't talk a lot about electrical stuff here, but we probab= ly should. A couple of months ago there was an on-airport engine-out crash l= anding of an LS V8 powered P51 replica in CA, and a subsequent discussion on= the HBA forum with the non-builder, non-flying owner asking what could have= gone wrong. He could offer almost no info about the way the plane was set u= p, but Eliot Seguin was doing what was supposed to be a simple flying off of= the insurance company-dictated 5 hours flight time when the failure happene= d, and he just posted a long Youtube video on the flight and accident seque= nce.=20 >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4PHTVTw_Y2A >>> I found the video very hard to watch due to the visual edit cuts every s= econd or two, but the after-action analysis is worth the hour you'll spend w= atching. >>>=20 >>> Guys, the builder of that a/c seemed to find every possible way to make t= he electrical system failure-prone. Seguin describes the elaborate steps the= y took prior to him flying the a/c to inspect the airframe, but they apparen= tly totally ignored the electrical system. Because of that, the choices the b= uilder made almost certainly caused the original gear issue, and then caused= the total electrical failure that took out everything in the a/c, including= the engine. There is no justification for wiring an a/c the way this one wa= s wired. >>>=20 >>> With most of us running automotive style engine control, electricity is o= bviously quite critical to engine operation. We really should do Failure Mod= e Effects Analysis on the whole plane, including the electrical system, but w= ith electrically dependent engines, it's critical. Draw your schematic. Look= at *every single wire*. Pretend that it got broken, and ask what happens, a= nd then ask what plan you have in place to work around it. Then short it to g= round, and ask the same questions. (You can get very different effects.) Mov= e to the next wire, and do it again. Rinse; repeat. Then fail each component= and ask the questions.=20 >>>=20 >>> Don't let any one electrical issue cause the engine to stop, or cause mo= re than momentary distraction from normal flight. Most of us know about the A= eroelectric Connection email list, but if you don't, please sign up for the l= ist and get the book (relatively inexpensive in print; free for download). I= f you're not absolutely confident in your electrical design decisions (or ma= ybe even if you are), get peer review. The AEC list is best, but at least as= k here if you don't want to sign up over there. There are a *lot* of wrong w= ays to wire an a/c. >>>=20 >>> I hate it that the FAA's accident database will now show yet another cra= sh 'caused' by an alternative engine, when in fact it was caused by uninform= ed/bad electrical design decisions made by the builder. >>>=20 >>> OK, rant mode off... >>>=20 >>> Charlie >>>=20 >>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >=20 --Apple-Mail-D8E0C5BF-9386-4FEB-BAAE-ECBDC9F0DA3E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks =F0=9F=99=8F Charlie

Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach 

On 22 Jun 2021, at 16:49, Charlie E= ngland ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20
You can sign up for the Aeroelectric list in forum format or via email delivery here:
http://fo= rums.matronics.com/profile.php?mode=3Dregister&sid=3D176edac1f9dd12aaebb= b8d5e9823a520
The patriarch of the list is Bob Nuckolls; website here:
h= ttp://aeroelectric.com/
You can order a print copy  of the book here:
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/= AECCatalog.html
The downloadable version is a bit tricky to find, but here's a link that will let you download the book by individual chapters:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/
A seemingly endless trove of info on his articles page:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html

Good hunting...
;-)


On 6/21/2021 10:48 PM, Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote:

Mmmm ......Charlie thanks for pointing =E2=98=9D=EF=B8=8F that out.
Is there a =E2=80=9Clink=E2=80=9D that you can post perhaps of th= e (AEC )Aeroelectric Connection email list ?
Le Roux

Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach 

On 21 Jun 2021, at 21:08, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


=EF=BB=BF We don't talk a lot about electrical stuff here, but we probably should. A couple of months ago there was an on-airport engine-out crash landing of an LS V8 powered P51 replica in CA, and a subsequent discussion on the HBA forum with the non-builder, non-flying owner asking what could have gone wrong. He could offer almost no info about the way the plane was set up, but Eliot Seguin was doing what was supposed to be a simple flying off of the insurance company-dictated 5 hours flight time when the failure happened, and he just  posted a long Youtube video on the flight and accident sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/w= atch?v=3D4PHTVTw_Y2A
I found the video very hard to watch due to the visual edit cuts every second or two, but the after-action analysis is worth the hour you'll spend watching.

Guys, the builder of that a/c seemed to find every possible way to make the electrical system failure-prone. Seguin describes the elaborate steps they took prior to him flying the a/c to inspect the airframe, but they apparently totally ignored the electrical system. Because of that, the choices the builder made almost certainly caused the original gear issue, and then caused the total electrical failure that took out everything in the a/c, including the engine. There is no justification for wiring an a/c the way this one was wired.

With most of us running automotive style engine control, electricity is obviously quite critical to engine operation. We really should do Failure Mode Effects Analysis on the whole plane, including the electrical system, but with electrically dependent engines, it's critical. Draw your schematic. Look at *every single wire*. Pretend that it got broken, and ask what happens, and then ask what plan you have in place to work around it. Then short it to ground, and ask the same questions. (You can get very different effects.) Move to the next wire, and do it again. Rinse; repeat. Then fail each component and ask the questions.

Don't let any one electrical issue cause the engine to stop, or cause more than momentary distraction from normal flight. Most of us know about the Aeroelectric Connection email list, but if you don't, please sign up for the list and get the book (relatively inexpensive in print; free for download). If you're not absolutely confident in your electrical design decisions (or maybe even if you are), get peer review. The AEC list is best, but at least ask here if you don't want to sign up over there. There are a *lot* of wrong ways to wire an a/c.

I hate it that the FAA's accident database will now show yet another crash 'caused' by an alternative engine, when in fact it was caused by uninformed/bad electrical design decisions made by the builder.

OK, rant mode off...

Charlie

Virus-free.= www.avast.com

=20
= --Apple-Mail-D8E0C5BF-9386-4FEB-BAAE-ECBDC9F0DA3E--