X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com ([209.85.210.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 102175 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:49:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.54; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id w23-20020a9d5a970000b02903d0ef989477so21383736oth.9 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 07:49:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=9QXvMpvJkwm4KFEgPWnbbXoBc58qfePcvKR4sQEirgI=; b=SDRIBCmT8eTHeGmB06dSFXAUCQNnbS0qf6ozd4ml6DVtmJWJWaA3KsHlz/qgLwMxKb l2EzAqIKR8ldzF71JLrxDGLkZ7JPZ1hfDoVPu1Xj9VzioqFTP6CcNubDzePcMb/IORRI x2VR3GMTzGaxayka/eOJQwxdT0aCa2/HdWYb5dAs+0zjZuDE3Vbcj8gnoI8ptaOAx/sW X948vWvrRK5i+uvJlSUpx1TSGFudBHT/Q9AoqrgRuBi1gCSFrZXDC0ol55vsAEdEfBlt jSb6zUKhKazKHcBEmqn04Ho99IBAFjgDAe8r+vaQMx3h+UX+SBowp3zv2ZmsTW13C2Wo r9Ug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=9QXvMpvJkwm4KFEgPWnbbXoBc58qfePcvKR4sQEirgI=; b=uI/aY8eW4S7NiU+pbJW5IMxcMVaknt7pvTj4D1xBUmOZHSdj+hv4eLcVu9DF5X1tjF vrUJt45Chn3p3D0YgQQ75+D6i43K5RFKhL76m809wTmEZlqPPIttX28M22AsFF6GQuw2 YPo3p+M45IqCQzqwOoRJf7Oz/IZIpE8WjZNqo5p1s8DnWuHtEu8v9NsDPEL5silTAiQq KYHAcy7Uf/niFQK6zV2gWMhyXE7KYsw/iASC8ywjFWqI7wxLR5TLBKInOIM/vITB0Fts Y7EV1UtNSuSYhLtAIP1cEHztrrahDJm2OVulXJltgnb7qHzB+XIfjkQRXIWflEhRcSRI m80g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5311eco23/F2n57Y9QnqOlBj3u9IBglKYios3+jcHXz5dwE4EF06 v06HdKanPMpDFP0quwNMoFozgQIUddg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZRw8hx2ihCHb35GJczBLTjkvlnM5UUlffHWTBXwH2hBHkJW5AeSNSBBKuozWQMkf9eMpT0w== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4c0a:: with SMTP id l10mr3628768otf.363.1624373338944; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 07:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:::1? ([2607:fb90:d058:5626:75ba:4c1c:9d5:1480]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c205sm4305700oib.20.2021.06.22.07.48.57 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jun 2021 07:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Warning: Electrical rant mode To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <182d3a8f-820c-df63-a079-4f3022db80fc@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:52:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3B343835A4DD745E8CA893EB" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 210621-8, 06/21/2021), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3B343835A4DD745E8CA893EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You can sign up for the Aeroelectric list in forum format or via email delivery here: http://forums.matronics.com/profile.php?mode=register&sid=176edac1f9dd12aaebbb8d5e9823a520 The patriarch of the list is Bob Nuckolls; website here: http://aeroelectric.com/ You can order a print copy  of the book here: https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECCatalog.html The downloadable version is a bit tricky to find, but here's a link that will let you download the book by individual chapters: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/ A seemingly endless trove of info on his articles page: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html Good hunting... ;-) On 6/21/2021 10:48 PM, Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > > Mmmm ......Charlie thanks for pointing ☝️ that out. > Is there a “link” that you can post perhaps of the (AEC )Aeroelectric > Connection email list ? > Le Roux > > Sent from my iPhone > Le Roux Breytenbach > >> On 21 Jun 2021, at 21:08, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com >> wrote: > >> >>  We don't talk a lot about electrical stuff here, but we probably >> should. A couple of months ago there was an on-airport engine-out >> crash landing of an LS V8 powered P51 replica in CA, and a subsequent >> discussion on the HBA forum with the non-builder, non-flying owner >> asking what could have gone wrong. He could offer almost no info >> about the way the plane was set up, but Eliot Seguin was doing what >> was supposed to be a simple flying off of the insurance >> company-dictated 5 hours flight time when the failure happened, and >> he just  posted a long Youtube video on the flight and accident >> sequence. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PHTVTw_Y2A >> I found the video very hard to watch due to the visual edit cuts >> every second or two, but the after-action analysis is worth the hour >> you'll spend watching. >> >> Guys, the builder of that a/c seemed to find every possible way to >> make the electrical system failure-prone. Seguin describes the >> elaborate steps they took prior to him flying the a/c to inspect the >> airframe, but they apparently totally ignored the electrical system. >> Because of that, the choices the builder made almost certainly caused >> the original gear issue, and then caused the total electrical failure >> that took out everything in the a/c, including the engine. _There is >> no justification for wiring an a/c the way this one was wired. >> >> _With most of us running automotive style engine control, electricity >> is obviously quite critical to engine operation. We really should do >> Failure Mode Effects Analysis on the whole plane, including the >> electrical system, but with electrically dependent engines, it's >> critical. Draw your schematic. Look at *every single wire*. Pretend >> that it got broken, and ask what happens, and then ask what plan you >> have in place to work around it. Then short it to ground, and ask the >> same questions. (You can get very different effects.) Move to the >> next wire, and do it again. Rinse; repeat. Then fail each component >> and ask the questions. >> >> Don't let any one electrical issue cause the engine to stop, or cause >> more than momentary distraction from normal flight. Most of us know >> about the Aeroelectric Connection email list, but if you don't, >> please sign up for the list and get the book (relatively inexpensive >> in print; free for download). If you're not absolutely confident in >> your electrical design decisions (or maybe even if you are), get peer >> review. The AEC list is best, but at least ask here if you don't want >> to sign up over there. There are a *lot* of wrong ways to wire an a/c. >> >> I hate it that the FAA's accident database will now show yet another >> crash 'caused' by an alternative engine, when in fact it was caused >> by uninformed/bad electrical design decisions made by the builder. >> >> OK, rant mode off... >> >> Charlie >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------3B343835A4DD745E8CA893EB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
You can sign up for the Aeroelectric list in forum format or via email delivery here:
http://forums.matronics.com/profile.php?mode=register&sid=176edac1f9dd12aaebbb8d5e9823a520
The patriarch of the list is Bob Nuckolls; website here:
http://aeroelectric.com/
You can order a print copy  of the book here:
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECCatalog.html
The downloadable version is a bit tricky to find, but here's a link that will let you download the book by individual chapters:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/
A seemingly endless trove of info on his articles page:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html

Good hunting...
;-)


On 6/21/2021 10:48 PM, Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote:

Mmmm ......Charlie thanks for pointing ☝️ that out.
Is there a “link” that you can post perhaps of the (AEC )Aeroelectric Connection email list ?
Le Roux

Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach 

On 21 Jun 2021, at 21:08, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


 We don't talk a lot about electrical stuff here, but we probably should. A couple of months ago there was an on-airport engine-out crash landing of an LS V8 powered P51 replica in CA, and a subsequent discussion on the HBA forum with the non-builder, non-flying owner asking what could have gone wrong. He could offer almost no info about the way the plane was set up, but Eliot Seguin was doing what was supposed to be a simple flying off of the insurance company-dictated 5 hours flight time when the failure happened, and he just  posted a long Youtube video on the flight and accident sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PHTVTw_Y2A
I found the video very hard to watch due to the visual edit cuts every second or two, but the after-action analysis is worth the hour you'll spend watching.

Guys, the builder of that a/c seemed to find every possible way to make the electrical system failure-prone. Seguin describes the elaborate steps they took prior to him flying the a/c to inspect the airframe, but they apparently totally ignored the electrical system. Because of that, the choices the builder made almost certainly caused the original gear issue, and then caused the total electrical failure that took out everything in the a/c, including the engine. There is no justification for wiring an a/c the way this one was wired.

With most of us running automotive style engine control, electricity is obviously quite critical to engine operation. We really should do Failure Mode Effects Analysis on the whole plane, including the electrical system, but with electrically dependent engines, it's critical. Draw your schematic. Look at *every single wire*. Pretend that it got broken, and ask what happens, and then ask what plan you have in place to work around it. Then short it to ground, and ask the same questions. (You can get very different effects.) Move to the next wire, and do it again. Rinse; repeat. Then fail each component and ask the questions.

Don't let any one electrical issue cause the engine to stop, or cause more than momentary distraction from normal flight. Most of us know about the Aeroelectric Connection email list, but if you don't, please sign up for the list and get the book (relatively inexpensive in print; free for download). If you're not absolutely confident in your electrical design decisions (or maybe even if you are), get peer review. The AEC list is best, but at least ask here if you don't want to sign up over there. There are a *lot* of wrong ways to wire an a/c.

I hate it that the FAA's accident database will now show yet another crash 'caused' by an alternative engine, when in fact it was caused by uninformed/bad electrical design decisions made by the builder.

OK, rant mode off...

Charlie

Virus-free. www.avast.com

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