X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f50.google.com ([209.85.208.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 101485 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 23:48:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.50; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f50.google.com with SMTP id q14so413297eds.5 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=FSi1tAIQVgOv8XJBgMPO4nzwmQLb3P4Oxvs31n4W75Q=; b=eyOxEw4xGdxwyeCnzWm7v6TzybJykkuN0gc1T4MVdtOx2UbGwZGr6lJ2NN0SN3x/gs Ay8oSu7gDLHPOWyEIn7TFf44IS5TvU9SaiXzYr5LQqKeup/LEYDQs2CPWMYFaCjkVy3O vgCLqULqT8D+E3XpMgkc/TZpdLjoroya5Jt5Up1ardlDLidq42desKi7fPrR7LxV7xap L/hNlI4VSNx6TqVXEGBO41YZ6H8yeTqGmcVi37Jvfyo59DNoTI4bgwIE0a5VHL6YMopX 0L2MVdWTjElS9bIksJ57I7meAieYzo1Ft196/YAx5dhu5Eanb+vYS2GKMs22mngScjMu +jCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=FSi1tAIQVgOv8XJBgMPO4nzwmQLb3P4Oxvs31n4W75Q=; b=gU11mktmzV1eKQJpUzxj8CrbsykRX+P42CgNUxf/eiehTNDeYaXiyx5L4wmWnPJCfV K5ZQQSucFqTgs9rgnqm783n/puydh1+Q/yAyyLTeCr2gqsCDxtEWrRjol4fKlRHntn2a 9w2pP4lP0wY2u1+olgqbOXs162yeQMPyIhRmL58/VfejXBVmaepHedektnSmmfmKKtkL EZ+zWcXgCTEjocYirdB4olqwEjRZGQuaSBylMt/X70YMJG9EKH91gV7Uf/Rx4JlT9c/N RT/GkUQTg0GJLC0hFGagBr5VvbTy7MSImIdz4ak3HVs0GVMet4p1ohkjT9l0YWTaKjib y8qA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UuYH4tl27u2Jq7ULSuo9hfhCPz8nHVxvjhncez3Qqj9+Qy693 Z0NnU9XvYnxT0jOh1+YhpENo+04x9jZESg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhf3ojBVgLHuPCTAPneVxOj9tUb253jIfltcAnW6OiUZ86nkmopoZkuXDzHpDWZD/s7SxykA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:3514:: with SMTP id b20mr2103776edd.12.1624333689681; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.116] ([160.226.139.189]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h6sm11848829edj.91.2021.06.21.20.48.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B857505A-A206-470E-AE8B-0DAF9F862653 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Warning: Electrical rant mode Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:48:07 +0200 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) --Apple-Mail-B857505A-A206-470E-AE8B-0DAF9F862653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mmmm ......Charlie thanks for pointing =E2=98=9D=EF=B8=8F that out. Is there a =E2=80=9Clink=E2=80=9D that you can post perhaps of the (AEC )Aer= oelectric Connection email list ? Le Roux Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 > On 21 Jun 2021, at 21:08, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF We don't talk a lot about electrical stuff here, but we probably= should. A couple of months ago there was an on-airport engine-out crash lan= ding of an LS V8 powered P51 replica in CA, and a subsequent discussion on t= he HBA forum with the non-builder, non-flying owner asking what could have g= one wrong. He could offer almost no info about the way the plane was set up,= but Eliot Seguin was doing what was supposed to be a simple flying off of t= he insurance company-dictated 5 hours flight time when the failure happened,= and he just posted a long Youtube video on the flight and accident sequenc= e.=20 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4PHTVTw_Y2A > I found the video very hard to watch due to the visual edit cuts every sec= ond or two, but the after-action analysis is worth the hour you'll spend wat= ching. >=20 > Guys, the builder of that a/c seemed to find every possible way to make th= e electrical system failure-prone. Seguin describes the elaborate steps they= took prior to him flying the a/c to inspect the airframe, but they apparent= ly totally ignored the electrical system. Because of that, the choices the b= uilder made almost certainly caused the original gear issue, and then caused= the total electrical failure that took out everything in the a/c, including= the engine. There is no justification for wiring an a/c the way this one wa= s wired. >=20 > With most of us running automotive style engine control, electricity is ob= viously quite critical to engine operation. We really should do Failure Mode= Effects Analysis on the whole plane, including the electrical system, but w= ith electrically dependent engines, it's critical. Draw your schematic. Look= at *every single wire*. Pretend that it got broken, and ask what happens, a= nd then ask what plan you have in place to work around it. Then short it to g= round, and ask the same questions. (You can get very different effects.) Mov= e to the next wire, and do it again. Rinse; repeat. Then fail each component= and ask the questions.=20 >=20 > Don't let any one electrical issue cause the engine to stop, or cause more= than momentary distraction from normal flight. Most of us know about the Ae= roelectric Connection email list, but if you don't, please sign up for the l= ist and get the book (relatively inexpensive in print; free for download). I= f you're not absolutely confident in your electrical design decisions (or ma= ybe even if you are), get peer review. The AEC list is best, but at least as= k here if you don't want to sign up over there. There are a *lot* of wrong w= ays to wire an a/c. >=20 > I hate it that the FAA's accident database will now show yet another crash= 'caused' by an alternative engine, when in fact it was caused by uninformed= /bad electrical design decisions made by the builder. >=20 > OK, rant mode off... >=20 > Charlie >=20 > Virus-free. www.avast.com --Apple-Mail-B857505A-A206-470E-AE8B-0DAF9F862653 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mmmm ......Charlie thanks for pointing =E2= =98=9D=EF=B8=8F that out.
Is there a =E2=80=9Clink=E2=80=9D that you can= post perhaps of the (AEC )Aeroelectric Connection email list ?
Le= Roux

Sent from my iPhone
Le R= oux Breytenbach 

On 21 Jun 2021, at 21:08, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


=EF=BB= =BF =20 =20 =20 We don't talk a lot about electrical stuff here, but we probably should. A couple of months ago there was an on-airport engine-out crash landing of an LS V8 powered P51 replica in CA, and a subsequent discussion on the HBA forum with the non-builder, non-flying owner asking what could have gone wrong. He could offer almost no info about the way the plane was set up, but Eliot Seguin was doing what was supposed to be a simple flying off of the insurance company-dictated 5 hours flight time when the failure happened, and he just  posted a long Youtube video on the flight an= d accident sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4PHTVTw_Y2A
I found the video very hard to watch due to the visual edit cuts every second or two, but the after-action analysis is worth the hour you'll spend watching.

Guys, the builder of that a/c seemed to find every possible way to make the electrical system failure-prone. Seguin describes the elaborate steps they took prior to him flying the a/c to inspect the airframe, but they apparently totally ignored the electrical system. Because of that, the choices the builder made almost certainly caused the original gear issue, and then caused the total electrical failure that took out everything in the a/c, including the engine. Th= ere is no justification for wiring an a/c the way this one was wired.

With most of us running automotive style engine control, electricity is obviously quite critical to engine operation. We really should do Failure Mode Effects Analysis on the whole plane, including the electrical system, but with electrically dependent engines, it's critical. Draw your schematic. Look at *every single wire*. Pretend that it got broken, and ask what happens, and then ask what plan you have in place to work around it. Then short it to ground, and ask the same questions. (You can get very different effects.) Move to the next wire, and do it again. Rinse; repeat. Then fail each component and ask the questions.

Don't let any one electrical issue cause the engine to stop, or cause more than momentary distraction from normal flight. Most of us know about the Aeroelectric Connection email list, but if you don't, please sign up for the list and get the book (relatively inexpensive in print; free for download). If you're not absolutely confident in your electrical design decisions (or maybe even if you are), get peer review. The AEC list is best, but at least ask here if you don't want to sign up over there. There are a *lot* of wrong ways to wire an a/c.

I hate it that the FAA's accident database will now show yet another crash 'caused' by an alternative engine, when in fact it was caused by uninformed/bad electrical design decisions made by the builder.

OK, rant mode off...

Charlie

3D"" Virus-free. ww= w.avast.com
= --Apple-Mail-B857505A-A206-470E-AE8B-0DAF9F862653--