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Did you have any issue with getting it to idle smoothly with these larger injectors? Finn On 5/5/2021 9:41 AM, Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net wrote: > > Finn, > > On that note I have (4) almost new Denso Yellow injectors that I can’t > use with new FWF. I used short machined weld on injector holder from > SDS on the runners. I used (4) 540 cc for years before I decided to > try smaller injectors. The 425cc injectors provided a more consistent > EC3 tune. Your welcome to they them if you like. > > Bobby > > *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 04, 2021 9:34 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors > > Hi Finn > > I have similar setup to you. Renesis 4 port. > > I moved to all 4 Blue (secondary size) injectors as the red primaries > 290cc were saturating (ON all the time) by just before staging at 20 > inches of manifold. > > So the engine was going lean just before staging, making tuning the > mixture table difficult. > > I’m not sure you should trust your pressure readings without first > checking them against a reliable source. > > I went with the 4 Blue 540cc injectors only as I had spares, however > would prefer the 6 port yellows 425cc as they would be a better size > and I read that they apparently have a  better spray pattern. > > Also, I had wondered about the pulsation damper. I don’t have one and > all seems OK with no problem with reading pressure on the Dynon from a > basic VDO pressure sender. > > I must get around to reprogramming the EC3 and switch out the EC2 and > calibrate the EM3 fuel flow. > > I’m getting my fuel flow info from the Dynon and Fuel Flow transducer. > > I dead ended my fuel rail after the regulator so as to be able to use > the one fuel flow transducer. > > Cheers > > Steve Izett > > > > On 5 May 2021, at 4:12 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Ah...I thought you were saying that the pressure *increased*. If it's > fluctuating randomly, and you're sampling once/sec with no damper, it > could be all over the map (pardon the pun). > > Same symptom with digital MAP gauges; I was seeing swings of several > inches in MAP on my Lyc's engine monitor until I put a restrictor in > the feed to the MAP sensor (creates a damper). Unfortunately, I don't > thing that would work with a fuel line. ;-) > > Charlie > > On 5/4/2021 2:49 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net > wrote: > > On 5/4/2021 2:08 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > wrote: > > Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact > staging point, or is it just rising in that area? > > Yes, solid steps. > One second sampling intervals. > > How much increase on the gauge? Where is the reference for fuel > pressure measurement? > > 18 to 64 psi, about 36 average. > At end of secondary fuel rail. > > > > The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold > pressure), and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold > pressure rises. If the gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or > absolute), it would indicate a rise in pressure as the throttle is > opened. > > The regulator does respond to MAP changes. Originally I thought it > was too sensitive and the source of the wild swings in fuel > pressure. But there is a high-pressure fuel filter between the > regulator and the fuel rails. Figured that would dampen any pulses > before they reach the regulator but probably not true. > > Actually I don't have a dampener in the MAP line to the regulator. > Should probably try that. Since it wasn't an issue when tuning the > engine I forgot about it. The EC3 probably averages MAP samples. > > The more I think about it, if there are pressure pulses caused by > injectors opening and closing, the one-second sampling of the fuel > pressure sender could be randomly be hitting highs and lows. I > really should hook up an O'scope to the pressure sensor to see > what the signal from it looks like. > > Finn > > > Charlie > > On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com > wrote: > > Finn > > No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if > the EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the > secondaries haven't opened, fuel out of the manifold > decreases, so the pumps would raise the pressure. Are you > confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and > starting the secondaries at the same time? > > Bill > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes > BHughes@qnsinc.net > > wrote: > > Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 > reading?  Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning > around the staging point with different size injectors. > > Bobby > > *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft > [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net > ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors > > I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to > be about 50% higher than actual. > > So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow. > > The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the > staging point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open > (secondary injectors are larger than primary injectors on > the 4-port Renesis). > > I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth > transition around the staging point, at least to the point > when I didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle > through the staging point. > > However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging > point (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the > weird phenomenon of it going very lean when secondary > injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is that > fuel pressure/in/creases markedly. > > On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com > forum a guy that raced > RV-8s for a couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the > stock Renesis injectors. > > Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary > injectors -- not opening when they should. > > However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is > there a injector failure mode where pressure in intake > runners could push back through the injector into the fuel > line? > > Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of > total engine run (or attempted run) time. > > Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if > there were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should > still drop when secondary injectors open... > > I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% > ethanol boiling point vs temperature. > > Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? > Symptoms? Other ideas? > > Finn > > RX-8 4-port: > Primary: Denso 195500-4430    33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi > (350cc/min)    13.8 ohm > Secondary: Denso 195500-4460    51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi > (540cc/min)    13.8 ohm > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > <~WRD000.jpg> > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus > software. > www.avast.com > > *Disclaimer* > > The information contained in this communication from the > sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by > the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you > are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in > relation of the contents of this information is strictly > prohibited and may be unlawful. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and > may have been automatically archived by *Mimecast Ltd*, an > innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. > Providing a *safer* and *more useful* place for your human > generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and > compliance. To find out more Click Here > . > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------12036B3DEB217DE7279AA918 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks Bobby.

Did you have any issue with getting it to idle smoothly with these larger injectors?

Finn

On 5/5/2021 9:41 AM, Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net wrote:

Finn,

 

On that note I have (4) almost new Denso Yellow injectors that I can’t use with new FWF. I used short machined weld on injector holder from SDS on the runners. I used (4) 540 cc for years before I decided to try smaller injectors. The 425cc injectors provided a more consistent EC3 tune. Your welcome to they them if you like.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 9:34 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors

 

Hi Finn

 

I have similar setup to you. Renesis 4 port.

 

I moved to all 4 Blue (secondary size) injectors as the red primaries 290cc were saturating (ON all the time) by just before staging at 20 inches of manifold.

So the engine was going lean just before staging, making tuning the mixture table difficult.

 

I’m not sure you should trust your pressure readings without first checking them against a reliable source.

 

I went with the 4 Blue 540cc injectors only as I had spares, however would prefer the 6 port yellows 425cc as they would be a better size and I read that they apparently have a  better spray pattern.

 

Also, I had wondered about the pulsation damper. I don’t have one and all seems OK with no problem with reading pressure on the Dynon from a basic VDO pressure sender.

 

I must get around to reprogramming the EC3 and switch out the EC2 and calibrate the EM3 fuel flow. 

I’m getting my fuel flow info from the Dynon and Fuel Flow transducer. 

I dead ended my fuel rail after the regulator so as to be able to use the one fuel flow transducer.

 

Cheers

 

Steve Izett

 

 



On 5 May 2021, at 4:12 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

Ah...I thought you were saying that the pressure *increased*. If it's fluctuating randomly, and you're sampling once/sec with no damper, it could be all over the map (pardon the pun).

Same symptom with digital MAP gauges; I was seeing swings of several inches in MAP on my Lyc's engine monitor until I put a restrictor in the feed to the MAP sensor (creates a damper). Unfortunately, I don't thing that would work with a fuel line. ;-)

Charlie

On 5/4/2021 2:49 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

On 5/4/2021 2:08 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:

Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact staging point, or is it just rising in that area?

Yes, solid steps.
One second sampling intervals.

How much increase on the gauge? Where is the reference for fuel pressure measurement?

18 to 64 psi, about 36 average.
At end of secondary fuel rail.



The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold pressure), and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold pressure rises. If the gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or absolute), it would indicate a rise in pressure as the throttle is opened.

The regulator does respond to MAP changes. Originally I thought it was too sensitive and the source of the wild swings in fuel pressure. But there is a high-pressure fuel filter between the regulator and the fuel rails. Figured that would dampen any pulses before they reach the regulator but probably not true.

Actually I don't have a dampener in the MAP line to the regulator. Should probably try that. Since it wasn't an issue when tuning the engine I forgot about it. The EC3 probably averages MAP samples.

The more I think about it, if there are pressure pulses caused by injectors opening and closing, the one-second sampling of the fuel pressure sender could be randomly be hitting highs and lows. I really should hook up an O'scope to the pressure sensor to see what the signal from it looks like.

Finn


Charlie

On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote:

Finn

No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would raise the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and starting the secondaries at the same time?

Bill

 

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 reading?  Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the staging point with different size injectors.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors

 

I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be about 50% higher than actual.

So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow.

The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis).

I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth transition around the staging point, at least to the point when I didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the staging point.

However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomenon of it going very lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is that fuel pressure increases markedly.

On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors.

Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary injectors -- not opening when they should.

However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could push back through the injector into the fuel line?

Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total engine run (or attempted run) time.

Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop when secondary injectors open...

I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% ethanol boiling point vs temperature.

Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? Symptoms? Other ideas?

Finn

RX-8 4-port:
Primary: Denso 195500-4430    33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/min)    13.8 ohm
Secondary: Denso 195500-4460    51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (540cc/min)    13.8 ohm

 

 

<~WRD000.jpg>

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The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.

This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more Click Here.

 

 

 

 


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