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Wed, 17 Mar 2021 21:50:18 +0000 Received: by smtp422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e9e169f2d99979f8e855cac6e610197e; Wed, 17 Mar 2021 21:50:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Balance prop To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:50:12 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5060B362C3538FA59661334E" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 210317-0, 03/17/2021), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.17936 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.9.1) Content-Length: 21301 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5060B362C3538FA59661334E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Undoubtedly overthinking it. However I'm beginning to think there's a vast difference between balancing a DC motor vs an internal combustion engine. To confirm your method: 1) No nut 2) Nut on bolt 1 3) Move the nut to bolt 2 (clockwise or counter clockwise) 4) Move the nut to bolt 3 (same direction) 5) Move the nut to bolt 4 (same direction) Is that correct? Some prelim data: 3000 RPM     600mVp 1: 800mV 2: 500mV <- 3: 780mV 4: 650mV Appears that 8 gram nut on bolt 2 reduced amplitude. 4500RPM:     1.5 Vpp 1: 1.7 2: 1.3 <- 3: 1.6 4: 1.7 Appears that 8g nut on bolt 2 reduced amplitude. 6000 RPM:     1.1 1: 1.4 2: 1.2 3: 1.2 4: 1.3 Here it appears that the nut worsened amplitudes (need to repeat after engine has cooled down enough). I am using a 1/4" wide 7/16" nut that I can screw onto the few threads on the 7/16" bolts sticking out. Going to a higher or lower will require removing the 7/16" lock nuts (which are hard to get to in my installation) and adding/removing washers. Would make it easier if I removed the PSRU, blocked off the oil feed and hung the rads from something, I guess. So the basic sine curve I'm seeing is actually the combustion event? Could be, because when showing two or more cycles on the scope they do seem to alternate slightly in pattern and amplitude (rotor 1 being further from the PSRU mount plate where the accelerometer is mounted (about 1 o'clock pointed towards center of input shaft). Finn On 3/17/2021 3:16 PM, Ernest Christley echristley@att.net wrote: > Seems like you're over thinking it. > Take a reading with nothing added. > Add a nut and take a reading at each of the four points. > Two of the points should show improvement (less vibration), and two of > them should show degradation.  Each set should be adjacent.  If this > is not the case, you're done, because your motor is balanced better > than your hardware can detect.  The one exception is if all readings > got worse.  In that case, repeat the operation with a half sized nut, > like maybe jam nut. > > If you did get improvement in two adjacent points, you've identified > the point of imbalance.  Now you just have to determine how much > weight to remove it. I'd try another weight scaled to the nut you used > and the amount of improvement it produced.  For instance, if position > A cut the ips in half, and an adjacent position B by 75%, the > imbalance is going to be between those two.  I'd try the nut and a > washer on A, and a washer on B.  Keep doing that until you find it to > tedious to contine. > > This process also works to balance a treadmill motor that you add to a > bench top mill, btw. > > > On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 01:23:56 PM EDT, Finn Lassen > finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: > > > I'm now on day 5 (newly) trying to balance the engine with prop removed. > After a trip chasing a wild goose into the weeds with FFT, I'm now > trying the spreadsheet method: measure amplitude at these four points: > Unbalanced > Adding a 7.9g weight (nut) at one of the four bolts (reference) > Move the nut +90 deg from the reference bolt > Move the nut -90 deg from the reference bolt > > Tried it at 3000 RPM. > Plugged the numbers into the spreadsheet, it told me to add 28g at 4.5 > deg. Seemed like a lot. The result was a lot worse vibration that I > could actually feel. > > Tried again at 4,500 RPM, this time using P-P voltages. > Now wants me to add 183g at -143 deg. > > Very hard to get consistent readings. > > Really doesn't make any sense that the addition of a 8g weight > influences the amplitude of the scope curve so little. > The big washers on each side of the rubber donuts are 30g each. > > I'm getting a good trigger signal from a piece of alum tape near rim > of flywheel. > Using a ADLX335 accelerometer  followed by a 100Hz low pass filter and > 300x amp. ADXL335 has sensitivity of 300mV/G. With 300x amp, that's 90V/G. > 0.7Vp is about 0.008 Gs or 0.005 ips at 6000 RPM if my math and > circuit is correct. > V (ips) = A (Gs) * 3690 / RPM > > Is it possible that the near-sine curve I see on the scope is actually > the reaction (acceleration/de-acceleration of the rotor) to the > combustion event? > > Steve,  how did you balance your engine? > > Finn > > On 1/28/2021 12:39 AM, Sboese sboese@uwyo.edu > wrote: >> Matt, >> >> One cannot balance the prop by placing the balance weights on the >> flywheel due to the gear ratio of the psru.  I chose to dynamically >> balance at the flywheel with the prop removed, then install the prop, >> and finally dynamically balance at the prop.  That appears to have >> given good results for me. >> >> Steve Boese >> >> >> >>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> ◆ This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise >>> caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external >>> sources. >>> >>> >>> How does everyone balance their prop, do they gain access to the >>> flywheel and add bolts/washers there like a standard aircraft >>> engine? I'm looking to balance the prop around X60 (Williston, FL), >>> and I forget who, but someone said we could rent one nearby? >>> >>> >>> Had a 301 ss slip joint bellow for the exhaust and it cracked, which >>> set me back a few months. The end of my exhaust must have too much >>> vibration, I will figure out more rubber mounts with the welder to >>> stop the end vibrating. Bought a 2.75" inconel split joint bellow >>> from SPD exhaust that should handle the heat. >>> http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/AccPDFs/Bellows.pdf >>> >>> >>> - Matt Boiteau > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --------------5060B362C3538FA59661334E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Undoubtedly overthinking it.
However I'm beginning to think there's a vast difference between balancing a DC motor vs an internal combustion engine.

To confirm your method:
1) No nut
2) Nut on bolt 1
3) Move the nut to bolt 2 (clockwise or counter clockwise)
4) Move the nut to bolt 3 (same direction)
5) Move the nut to bolt 4 (same direction)
Is that correct?

Some prelim data:
3000 RPM
    600mVp
1: 800mV
2: 500mV <-
3: 780mV
4: 650mV
Appears that 8 gram nut on bolt 2 reduced amplitude.

4500RPM:
    1.5 Vpp
1: 1.7
2: 1.3 <-
3: 1.6
4: 1.7
Appears that 8g nut on bolt 2 reduced amplitude.

6000 RPM:
    1.1
1: 1.4
2: 1.2
3: 1.2
4: 1.3
Here it appears that the nut worsened amplitudes (need to repeat after engine has cooled down enough).

I am using a 1/4" wide 7/16" nut that I can screw onto the few threads on the 7/16" bolts sticking out.
Going to a higher or lower will require removing the 7/16" lock nuts (which are hard to get to in my installation) and adding/removing washers.
Would make it easier if I removed the PSRU, blocked off the oil feed and hung the rads from something, I guess.

So the basic sine curve I'm seeing is actually the combustion event?
Could be, because when showing two or more cycles on the scope they do seem to alternate slightly in pattern and amplitude (rotor 1 being further from the PSRU mount plate where the accelerometer is mounted (about 1 o'clock pointed towards center of input shaft).

Finn
 
On 3/17/2021 3:16 PM, Ernest Christley echristley@att.net wrote:
Seems like you're over thinking it.
Take a reading with nothing added.
Add a nut and take a reading at each of the four points. 
Two of the points should show improvement (less vibration), and two of them should show degradation.  Each set should be adjacent.  If this is not the case, you're done, because your motor is balanced better than your hardware can detect.  The one exception is if all readings got worse.  In that case, repeat the operation with a half sized nut, like maybe jam nut.

If you did get improvement in two adjacent points, you've identified the point of imbalance.  Now you just have to determine how much weight to remove it. I'd try another weight scaled to the nut you used and the amount of improvement it produced.  For instance, if position A cut the ips in half, and an adjacent position B by 75%, the imbalance is going to be between those two.  I'd try the nut and a washer on A, and a washer on B.  Keep doing that until you find it to tedious to contine.

This process also works to balance a treadmill motor that you add to a bench top mill, btw.


On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 01:23:56 PM EDT, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


I'm now on day 5 (newly) trying to balance the engine with prop removed.
After a trip chasing a wild goose into the weeds with FFT, I'm now trying the spreadsheet method: measure amplitude at these four points:
Unbalanced
Adding a 7.9g weight (nut) at one of the four bolts (reference)
Move the nut +90 deg from the reference bolt
Move the nut -90 deg from the reference bolt

Tried it at 3000 RPM.
Plugged the numbers into the spreadsheet, it told me to add 28g at 4.5 deg. Seemed like a lot. The result was a lot worse vibration that I could actually feel.

Tried again at 4,500 RPM, this time using P-P voltages.
Now wants me to add 183g at -143 deg.

Very hard to get consistent readings.

Really doesn't make any sense that the addition of a 8g weight influences the amplitude of the scope curve so little.
The big washers on each side of the rubber donuts are 30g each.

I'm getting a good trigger signal from a piece of alum tape near rim of flywheel.
Using a ADLX335 accelerometer  followed by a 100Hz low pass filter and 300x amp. ADXL335 has sensitivity of 300mV/G. With 300x amp, that's 90V/G.
0.7Vp is about 0.008 Gs or 0.005 ips at 6000 RPM if my math and circuit is correct.
V (ips) = A (Gs) * 3690 / RPM

Is it possible that the near-sine curve I see on the scope is actually the reaction (acceleration/de-acceleration of the rotor) to the combustion event?

Steve,  how did you balance your engine?

Finn

On 1/28/2021 12:39 AM, Sboese sboese@uwyo.edu wrote:
Matt,

One cannot balance the prop by placing the balance weights on the flywheel due to the gear ratio of the psru.  I chose to dynamically balance at the flywheel with the prop removed, then install the prop, and finally dynamically balance at the prop.  That appears to have given good results for me.

Steve Boese



On Jan 27, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:



◆ This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.


How does everyone balance their prop, do they gain access to the flywheel and add bolts/washers there like a standard aircraft engine? I'm looking to balance the prop around X60 (Williston, FL), and I forget who, but someone said we could rent one nearby?


Had a 301 ss slip joint bellow for the exhaust and it cracked, which set me back a few months. The end of my exhaust must have too much vibration, I will figure out more rubber mounts with the welder to stop the end vibrating. Bought a 2.75" inconel split joint bellow from SPD exhaust that should handle the heat.
http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/AccPDFs/Bellows.pdf


- Matt Boiteau




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