X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ej1-f41.google.com ([209.85.218.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 1166494 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 00:21:50 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.41; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ej1-f41.google.com with SMTP id bl23so5958021ejb.5 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 21:21:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RutcaUiZzA2xX0MJ1fPRDLWiIPQm3GWYm4R8S7RPyIs=; b=jfkUeL5lBoJXPzwf5ciVGsWViUmuxn0QJg2cktD7pvTcaKG4S1akdLgpi4hMCw2/n/ 6z9r+NKpGaE28N3HUE7flYhbXL+r3GFWBrS+idYxRlMVPGYNlkZS9mk6LcEJzdLKXf4T UixIGBID0ofIbDgw5ov9Pkti4XudU+uS4xi13wVogQp6vGWa0nUWUcOnBvAWP38pgGfV 9+oa0xi/8nFwc1y3uLt4oOWmngmllWeu28oE3V5gtOvyLXH95vtLxRhzucy6HzNC3lri ++KC5vNlxBx/Iyp1cCwBhzvB9NZ8CQu3NKVT+H6Z6BcmuOXysm1c6/eTmcgGycL3lugh Ok2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=RutcaUiZzA2xX0MJ1fPRDLWiIPQm3GWYm4R8S7RPyIs=; b=jz1fwiFKrgsA25m1BcxFgUuG3gMOlgXl484r4MNo/ERjTOGatTkgoB90T4iOPsaTJg SrzxmPt88h8VZmJcA/GV4DtBoroSPqooiNgVgbEsPcvdY2Fyh9ay95ercF+64JrUmo52 03ST0AykW2Ble6rMatfGUkzlqto9hGXSkdSutw16lFlHlKUsgQ5Ex3dzJHF48TBJezno 9KMW1A5zlb3OgM4Js7HX2yFGm7e6rVpiUCS3Y+zqvcVj7l7MF9KC0e6Mmai5pse3t9gB Ot0iRLN7oTZiS8jMg6Aa79jqqMkxjMPYM6Ri048lnv6jiX/PYTXEvSjw5VLJFjOfyRfo D5cQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53232WVNMpiRc+uYISKngifn8gZxl0V1PjPA7XqKlz8EFLzbNLl3 +YEGJPvzRx0Sa1wPeOk37WOtva27lWkngDS0sobuk7nsMOy8PA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx5c5gJYI72+vBJcqXEFLRFMA4F6/Xl/+nJ8PyFNLByacx3dM5G9ox9435rNj/Tl+AYGazQryUHM+xm+evAsbc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:538c:: with SMTP id g12mr9513101ejo.248.1611811294809; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 21:21:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:21:23 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham - Cooling video To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac124505b9ef0f42" --000000000000ac124505b9ef0f42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Matt: Is this something you can consider? Using exit louvers on the side ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ijv_g4mb8 Le Roux On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 4:02 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > On 1/27/2021 7:06 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > Ross does the SDS EFI system and did 2 videos on cooling his Subaru > engine. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGXXEgqhmmc&ab_channel=rv6ejguy > > It seems him and Tracy agree that we need a thicker core, then the 1" Paul > L kept on suggesting. My coolant rad is almost as wide as the plane with > the 1" truck core. > > I'm definitely not happy with my cooling setup, but needed to get moving > and finish the plane. Can sit around all day talking about it, or start > with something and get better in time. I'm done the flyoff hours in FL and > hoping to bring the plane back to Canada in the spring where I can tinker > with it then. 3D draw things out and get suggestions from people then. > > What do you guys think of a belly mount coolant rad? How would we plum the > exhaust out of the way? Keep oil coolant in the cowl? Or Below the engine? > > - Matt Boiteau > > I think that a good starting point for engineering issues is to look at > what's already been demonstrated as successful. 1" thick rads (or even > thinner) work great in cars, where there's plenty of room and they spend > most of their time barely moving (minimum air pressure delta across the > core). On the other hand, a typical a/c oil cooler is 3"-4" thick. And if > what I read is correct, most NASCAR and other racers run radiators that are > in the same thickness range. Racers and a/c both operate in the same speed > range, with roughly the same delta-p available (assuming proper diffusers). > > My takeaway is that something like a Pietenpol or Cub-type a/c would > benefit from a large area, thin rad, while faster planes can use thicker > cores, which have the benefit of letting the airframe be more > aerodynamically efficient. The compromise is poorer cooling performance > while idling or taxiing. > > Location is what you can make work. Ross' system is orders of magnitude > better than his original system. But have you looked at his original > system??... There are things that still could be improved by quite a bit on > his system, like not letting the cowl exit air feed into the rad cooling > inlet. Also note that he still needed turning vanes in his diffuser. I'm > not knocking turning vanes; I'm using them in both my diffusers. But I've > got everything inside the cowl (very short, curved diffusers), without the > advantage of a really long, straight diffuser. Another thing to remember > is that he's flying a relatively heavy engine, compared to the stock Lyc in > that airframe. Moving his cooling aft likely helped his CG. IIRC, when > Tracy did his 1st rotary install in the -4, he considered a ventral rad > system but because the 13B was *lighter* than a Lyc, he needed to keep the > weight forward. My experience matches Tracy's; my FWF weight (less fluids) > is ~332 lbs, which is lighter than a Lyc FWF. > > FWIW, > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_9011593919463936658_m_2383610885135214890_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > --000000000000ac124505b9ef0f42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matt: Is this something you can consider? Using exit louve= rs on the side ?

<= div>
Le Roux


On Thu, J= an 28, 2021 at 4:02 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 1/27/2021 7:06 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboitea= u@gmail.com wrote:
=20
Ross does the SDS EFI system and did 2 videos on cooling his=C2=A0Subaru engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DGGXXEg= qhmmc&ab_channel=3Drv6ejguy

It seems him and Tracy agree that we need a thicker core, then the 1" Paul L kept on suggesting. My coolant rad is almost as wide as the plane with the 1" truck core.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

I'm definitely=C2=A0not happy with my cooling setup, but need= ed to get moving and finish the plane. Can sit around all day talking about it, or start with something and get better in time. I'm done the flyoff=C2=A0hours in FL and hoping to brin= g the plane back to Canada in the spring where I can tinker with it then. 3D draw things out and get suggestions from people then.
What do you guys think of a belly mount coolant rad? How would we=C2=A0plum the exhaust out of the way? Keep oil coolant in the cowl? Or Below the engine?

- Matt Boiteau
I think that a good starting point for engineering issues is to look at what's already been demonstrated as successful. 1" thick ra= ds (or even thinner) work great in cars, where there's plenty of room and they spend most of their time barely moving (minimum air pressure delta across the core). On the other hand, a typical a/c oil cooler is 3"-4" thick. And if what I read is correct, most NASCAR an= d other racers run radiators that are in the=C2=A0 same thickness range. Racers and a/c both operate in the same speed range, with roughly the same delta-p available (assuming proper diffusers).

My takeaway is that something like a Pietenpol or Cub-type a/c would benefit from a large area, thin rad, while faster planes can use thicker cores, which have the benefit of letting the airframe be more aerodynamically efficient. The compromise is poorer cooling performance while idling or taxiing.

Location is what you can make work. Ross' system is orders of magnitude better than his original system. But have you looked at his original system??... There are things that still could be improved by quite a bit on his system, like not letting the cowl exit air feed into the rad cooling inlet. Also note that he still needed turning vanes in his diffuser. I'm not knocking turning vanes; I'm using them in both my diffusers. But I've got everyt= hing inside the cowl (very short, curved diffusers), without the advantage of a really long, straight diffuser.=C2=A0 Another thing to remember is that he's flying a relatively heavy engine, compared to the stock Lyc in that airframe. Moving his cooling aft likely helped his CG. IIRC, when Tracy did his 1st rotary install in the -4, he considered a ventral rad system but because the 13B was *lighter* than a Lyc, he needed to keep the weight forward. My experience matches Tracy's; my FWF weight (less fluids) is ~332 lbs, which is lighter than a Lyc FWF.

FWIW,

Charlie

3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com=
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