X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic316-12.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.130.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 1015242 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Dec 2020 20:05:10 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.130.122; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1607303093; bh=+LHjvVNRHSqW/l5urIZ8ktgTUPjhO5Lj8y1FP6tJDX4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=I2ZgStadxgQp4LFuh6NUyfsK/a0F+csX3S5g+0a9rAB3YxkIjOoEiAEuX6fnoF9qSCCOKo6wjm1MQ63+xZRjUG0kBdIGHB0c4zfbRBALruQRN4wo1u7S/6V3GvGE1/9z2IOB1/lF7qVUcbyV8L0dOVa78HdjnaDsSbCKM8zMe12gG8aVlgJDL8Wj4x2Cke2LgOZQW/gojbymHLpgTQH0yZP/eIcwX641joUj6myD7Jg5HtI9gZoGdbvtUppDQ6pamvcfHCyIhOnh2WWMs4CIGef02vSEqFsecXg7peQDoAcZq7umYp/EJqwch4ggisMhJohpuxZfKrlbhb1CefAAYw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1607303093; bh=5LMaSQu/0Wa1W7hiSyD/DWYWc1ZVHd0upo+nZtRCOWo=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=joF+oCwU4nWnkFep9agMPe9TlwgdxUnBk7nJ/mkdT6c9bvMigahhFu8Rqew/bzf121qdnY8inn0Lq2+PrJdvvv//wctzFiy849F+XKMeMm9BShjPBphgMsBOvRcD32PzD1pxxazjefcdgw/Bs9cOHhp/IHiOm+DtOf1qQ2B9ff8IwobygpyklYBUP01VgY/iRP5rxhWk3wePBrqsYiFThH/Ue6yLXF43zcA8B3dyPrOGSqf23910fPugNZQGJNgZmXv/4FgZW+qAKr2AlYWEVzw74wnHMuXTN9BukA9U9QeCtQ3o0oZWlAiFN2523+/kGXIQ8hE1MFgo38Tg3NEwlg== X-YMail-OSG: YDw4404VM1mjAWAJbPEesVscAidrb5XDRa.fR1JCSH_tt3Rj.TMr37pj3EgNFFo q8eqx9T6Eg8IMml8PNb4Wx6fPbw4D1jwxrOePHdopnQkZd7kWWPK_Y7tq8YucnzTc0V5rXIuYRZq f6xOT6sNmh30PxgICYo4VfhWlpYVzM2Nsk79uSlMNmYhaID6E6JIyl5DBsW70IXEQKw20swrhOpt se32df_1w.hn1hWRElNJ5fVi4nAVDwKK4LfJYcJZragr.9cCywCTN6FhHUGepYFhhD_AWvQSTdGk _qz2931HWJCrDFPRyBAY8LX1G5L7TzaVOC5Y5EpIbQ6sXsupAjz0J9SNYtpIxT8eclnGrxR8Uv1Z Rs3SdnLmUX5XnH97Gf.Zk6I9ZIdHKhnf3Pk1I7XRxACxX3NfBviBDKMtmubO4qFa3CY6yZqtNo.o XvooQCh66sXBvDb_UyY3aa4qnRB7qF5C2kqSzU9zZJ8SQjcjRViu2EQJQPFTr0jP0LOwDB1d4ZrM OA2fT6bREPlxPGucjjBhnrOTgMs2m3LfVKT7FgEBCIOA7aJ6i7AuvGxj63ZMMXRoUczXFCgvJEFp l8br1zxurqVN80R65q8bO8auG6YZulF3oC0riXqxSPfA18FbbAwlv7O3QKkzcWSGmHYOJyDXawzT DVOAvXsH8CrxgOpWA9EZ0zrqdzQoXv73jIOQbLSI0L5ZNLr4gr8QBbpQIJuWgQqxquougENfH8Hj qi0BC3ISOz4MYcEqOuCfy_HSYKtOBOmGtsWFuPoCTz4EHHOSXH2t8zsE1o_W8S43Hq_x1YCD_Atv 1_XJponbNhDBMK4DnTy9Sn9VjIaTHdh3JKS.b3MWkNfe1UIvtfZTS0tVxSYloy9JtA3rEK7ytLIR T8InDvM8IxCpaOYDfprpGYB.RkhWOygdgd9._7ABB7S4gVyt0yb0nSPmAzQSB2y6cIY1yvZ6Wxto P2HJ0BAMz4L1Vpjq52yK6Hp7TPJKW4chJcfEjGUOSkO5KZ2r6YMpxxqpLq2TLJ2axgpxVONEzwH_ a7DAF7M_gzwFpNxzHn7gx9iLaCNfj2_rPPJXr3hGoQbFru0qKcZ6Z1yvG32KTqQe1C5IqfUWIMsd pW960SWOECyXEl1KwAT8nvPdq4Jbo1fYLHlK7_rBIile5W1P6Jo.ZbT5xTT15rHJ_JE5amuQyb0L 6uog2DKeRiWteQXa3lyIvEGgj89wuZysSdESYAqufHpfszj.U_.wpF4RCBGPoaknAx7z8mq9zgaM wTi9U02_rDI8HFFQdtG73FMH4elhxdQtj4W2gdrDlpFb8ReX9VH.KlqY.A89tgKsee65T_nz.g30 SrLyipT05Tr9wM3Wo0iAG5AL8uh47FmBjZSdqH6.xYH0c4T4nGOmrPf9u9zqgiiEVL2dgLSoetAI 44l0PDSBilo_ilSY22lSUvU4lTBM7VweB06shOZr7NeNwVdn8Pd2iRTynP.cwuV2r3eT8KtSDZ88 ek9GxhFf43vePYcM4SjUITss.AS_kT5i7dCNUaJo38zFPTe6w0Y3HQEGs_jDKF_SwyWwMp7Is.o3 2SIs2k6lFwMTda5rxAHmrkfJ_Zmbn5GwvIwYdb7E_HcJ8vZLGj2krIX6CuXj7fpyb1gB.DQ38CQM zH3cmMoIwitsAKDjJttuk_iVnsNqGoBvinyWOdhNJ4lfxWk3r0OcPIuaFRe.Pv5GQGatJyraKUt7 MAWeJ22Upswxwh32anwv9F3tg6JR1kcEjUtkK.9fhJGwSSdudgjPHpwtqUVGm8yjcwJWAN6nx4dV jkEKZiuH8GOiXH032LxZzjUgBPbK3MDNJx2m5.6gcQMIYXyNPMoWhlvSaR6AAhcLsRJVDCVWinvI 82ezCDRbd33YQGfXpbE32jdldnPtMHWPNY48TwITas4YvLQ_HEn04HfB2Cx_iQnVd5c3PL80KlA1 ZmGw3bYvQ4KrcUHONvtGnHA1uoSipCGMJYPJHCtMgsKADjvkofInJn0aTacvIWMDbKsWakPtupY3 ypEitZrkHwYIb4uz8XgqWhq5GRp_i_P0x3DIN0jbVBZa8PEQBHfDU7JvkEdntbEC4.u_xC3okWw1 _HQBYr28pPkHAkIkSMYlRgS_iSwc7k.2VbdgAkQC_u5x1W.BkNcJs0bpaT7y45jij1TCLh_v38f7 _trWFdMEkKn3LvUwD1HCjX.7KyTBMRujZOkkcfP2EJRN.LYTQCU5VSiA4ryz1HpCadPXoD5p9oXs 2lj4fSZ_yn3icphF8dJlxup4MQpK7x59OljOzc3W4QR5xnhXZbbxfNEgVK0cqCyiQZ1N8A0bs Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 01:04:53 +0000 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 01:04:48 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: lehanover To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <495341259.3216090.1607303088600@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: RD1-C damper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3216089_834790025.1607303088596" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.17111 aolloki unknown Content-Length: 18036 ------=_Part_3216089_834790025.1607303088596 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have picked up a stock manual transmission flywheel for a rotary, yo= u must know that "Houston we have a problem". So the worst pick for a car e= ngine becomes the best pick for smoothness at idle. That flywheel is the an= swer. The less flywheel effect available the more powerful the reversals ne= ar idle. The more powerful the reversals the shorter the flex plate life. T= he flex plate drives the car through a hydraulic damper. So it is with the = aircraft. No damper, short life. There are companies who make little tiny s= hock absorbers. I thought that 4 such shocks on a racing flywheel pushing a= driven disc should do the job. Even stock flex plates from piston powered = cars get cracks. Few fail completely. =C2=A0I think Tracy's pucks are adequ= ate. Just double up the flex plate to just outboard of the puck housings. N= o welding. Use nuts and bolts.=C2=A0 It also adds actual flywheel effect wh= ich reduces the stress.=C2=A0=C2=A0For the racer I made a steel button flyw= heel. Just large enough to support a 2 disc 5 1/4" clutch. I bolted this on= over the stock flex plate. The flex plate was just used to start the engin= e and nothing else. I turned down the face of the counter weight so as to p= rovide a taller spigot to locate the flex plate and the flywheel. Piece of = cake.=C2=A0=C2=A0The racer used a straight cut gear dog ring style gear box= from Saenz in Argentina. The gears had enough clearance so as to agree wit= h various RPMs. As on start up form a stand still the RPMs would drop below= 2,200 and the car sounded like a Brush Hog running over a pile of hammer h= eads. That is what you want to avoid.=C2=A0=C2=A0Also when unloaded even at= higher RPM. The same thing. So when feathering the throttle like in third = gear. When the engine is not driving the wheels and the wheels are not driv= ing the engine. Maybe as on final you might get into this situation. So a b= it more power, or, a bit less power will save the day.=C2=A0The teem had a = very competent engineer. My hands are still dirty............... Lynn E. Ha= nover=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0In a message dated 12/6/2020 5:28:22 PM Eastern Stan= dard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:=C2=A0 Thanks Dave. =C2=A0Did you do away with your damper after your flax plate d= isintegrated/failed over time, or was this still before Tracy changed his m= ind about the need for the "higher frequency=E2=80=9D isolation provided by= the damper?=C2=A0I was trying to think about the forces at work on that th= in steel plate apart from the torque of your boosted 300 hp.I was wondering= about the gyroscopic (is that the right word) force created by that extra = mass bolted to it, travelling at much higher velocity, and then being asked= to change direction with the subsequent =E2=80=9Cflexing=E2=80=9D forces a= t play.Steve Boese=E2=80=99 science/engineering mind or Lynn Hanover=E2=80= =99s hands dirty experience appreciated at this point!=C2=A0Thanks also to = Dave Leonard for what we have learnt from your need for speed, and Neil Ung= er=E2=80=99s relentless work on gearboxes.=C2=A0So there being evidence of = failure outside of aircraft use, I'll look into another stronger starter ri= ng gear.=C2=A0BUT more to the point. what experience do we now have of remo= ving the damper altogether?I thought this was the important question, becau= se if not required, appears to save significant: weight, cost, and maintena= nce.=C2=A0Has there been further word from Tracy or anyone else flying the = RD2 or other no-isolator setups?Tracy=E2=80=99s initial testing appeared pr= omising but thats now some years back. =C2=A0Thanks heaps everyone. Couldn'= t have got this far without your brains, pain, cheque book, experience etc.= =C2=A0Cheers=C2=A0Steve Izett=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0> On 7 Dec 2020, at 12:52 am, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:> > Steve, you are right.=C2=A0 The Issue= is cracking og the auto-tranny flex plate.=C2=A0 Mine failed entirely.=C2= =A0 I highly recommend making the change sooner rather than later.> > Dave = Leonard> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2020, 12:48 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.= com wrote:> Hi Charlie> > I thought people mo= ved to the race flywheels because the flex plates were cracking. > I hadn= =E2=80=99t heard of the Engine/Drive/Prop needing a flywheel mass.> I found= some info on the forum archive but nothing to draw it all together.> I=E2= =80=99ll have a good look at the flexplate when I pull the drive and check = for cracking, but unless I hear otherwise I plan to reuse the flex plate.> = > Thanks> > Steve> > > > > > > > On 6 Dec 2020, at 8:58 am, Charlie England= ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:> > > > On 12/5/2= 020 6:35 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:> >> Hi team> >> >= >> Having completed phase #1 testing of the Glasair Super IIRG power by Re= nesis and RD1-C redrive, I=E2=80=99re going to pull the redrive for its 25 = hourly initial inspection.> >> > >> Tracy deleted the damper assembly from = the last rendition of his design and I=E2=80=99m considering removing ours = by creating a new adapter plate from the existing splined> >> part that is = currently riveted to the damper and adding some longer bolts and spacers.> = >> > >> Has anyone heard anything further in regard to RD receives with the= damper removed?> >> Has Tracy given any further updatess?> >> All I have r= ead was after initial tests some years ago.> >> > >> Cheers> >> > >> Steve.= > > Best I remember is that you need either an aluminum or steel racing fly= wheel, to get more mass on the engine side of the system.=C2=A0 IIRC, it's = also limited to low mass (wood, etc) propellers. The ones he sold had a dif= ferent input shaft, but I think Dave Leonard modified his RD1-C & to use a = steel racing flywheel which was only slightly heavier than the aluminum ver= sion. Search for Dave's posts, if he doesn't chime in. I've been wondering = if Guibo/Rototflex couplers could be a viable alternative to the aluminum p= late/rubber discs. Probably would weigh more, and definitely cost more.> > = > > Charlie> > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast = antivirus software.> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus> > > > > > --> > Hom= epage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/> > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html> > > --> Homepage:=C2=A0= http://www.flyrotary.com/> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironl= ine.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=C2=A0=C2=A0--Homepage:=C2=A0 http://ww= w.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/l= ists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_Part_3216089_834790025.1607303088596 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If you have picked up a stock manual transmission flywheel for a rotary, you must know that "Houston we have a problem". So the worst pick for a car engine becomes the best pick for smoothness at idle. That flywheel is the answer. The less flywheel effect available the more powerful the reversals near idle. The more powerful the reversals the shorter the flex plate life. The flex plate drives the car through a hydraulic damper. So it is with the aircraft. No damper, short life. There are companies who make little tiny shock absorbers. I thought that 4 such shocks on a racing flywheel pushing a driven disc should do the job. Even stock flex plates from piston powered cars get cracks. Few fail completely.
 
I think Tracy's pucks are adequate. Just double up the flex plate to just outboard of the puck housings. No welding. Use nuts and bolts.  It also adds actual flywheel effect which reduces the stress.  
For the racer I made a steel button flywheel. Just large enough to support a 2 disc 5 1/4" clutch. I bolted this on over the stock flex plate. The flex plate was just used to start the engine and nothing else. I turned down the face of the counter weight so as to provide a taller spigot to locate the flex plate and the flywheel. Piece of cake. 
 
The racer used a straight cut gear dog ring style gear box from Saenz in Argentina. The gears had enough clearance so as to agree with various RPMs. As on start up form a stand still the RPMs would drop below 2,200 and the car sounded like a Brush Hog running over a pile of hammer heads. That is what you want to avoid. 
 
Also when unloaded even at higher RPM. The same thing. So when feathering the throttle like in third gear. When the engine is not driving the wheels and the wheels are not driving the engine. Maybe as on final you might get into this situation. So a bit more power, or, a bit less power will save the day.
 
The teem had a very competent engineer. My hands are still dirty............... Lynn E. Hanover  
 
In a message dated 12/6/2020 5:28:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
 
Thanks Dave.
 
Did you do away with your damper after your flax plate disintegrated/failed over time, or was this still before Tracy changed his mind about the need for the "higher frequency” isolation provided by the damper?
 
I was trying to think about the forces at work on that thin steel plate apart from the torque of your boosted 300 hp.
I was wondering about the gyroscopic (is that the right word) force created by that extra mass bolted to it, travelling at much higher velocity, and then being asked to change direction with the subsequent “flexing” forces at play.
Steve Boese’ science/engineering mind or Lynn Hanover’s hands dirty experience appreciated at this point!
 
Thanks also to Dave Leonard for what we have learnt from your need for speed, and Neil Unger’s relentless work on gearboxes.
 
So there being evidence of failure outside of aircraft use, I'll look into another stronger starter ring gear.
 
BUT more to the point. what experience do we now have of removing the damper altogether?
I thought this was the important question, because if not required, appears to save significant: weight, cost, and maintenance.
 
Has there been further word from Tracy or anyone else flying the RD2 or other no-isolator setups?
Tracy’s initial testing appeared promising but thats now some years back.
 
Thanks heaps everyone. Couldn't have got this far without your brains, pain, cheque book, experience etc.
 
Cheers
 
Steve Izett
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
> On 7 Dec 2020, at 12:52 am, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> Steve, you are right.  The Issue is cracking og the auto-tranny flex plate.  Mine failed entirely.  I highly recommend making the change sooner rather than later.
>
> Dave Leonard
>
> On Sun, Dec 6, 2020, 12:48 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> Hi Charlie
>
> I thought people moved to the race flywheels because the flex plates were cracking.
> I hadn’t heard of the Engine/Drive/Prop needing a flywheel mass.
> I found some info on the forum archive but nothing to draw it all together.
> I’ll have a good look at the flexplate when I pull the drive and check for cracking, but unless I hear otherwise I plan to reuse the flex plate.
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6 Dec 2020, at 8:58 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/5/2020 6:35 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Hi team
> >>
> >> Having completed phase #1 testing of the Glasair Super IIRG power by Renesis and RD1-C redrive, I’re going to pull the redrive for its 25 hourly initial inspection.
> >>
> >> Tracy deleted the damper assembly from the last rendition of his design and I’m considering removing ours by creating a new adapter plate from the existing splined
> >> part that is currently riveted to the damper and adding some longer bolts and spacers.
> >>
> >> Has anyone heard anything further in regard to RD receives with the damper removed?
> >> Has Tracy given any further updatess?
> >> All I have read was after initial tests some years ago.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Steve.
> > Best I remember is that you need either an aluminum or steel racing flywheel, to get more mass on the engine side of the system.  IIRC, it's also limited to low mass (wood, etc) propellers. The ones he sold had a different input shaft, but I think Dave Leonard modified his RD1-C & to use a steel racing flywheel which was only slightly heavier than the aluminum version. Search for Dave's posts, if he doesn't chime in. I've been wondering if Guibo/Rototflex couplers could be a viable alternative to the aluminum plate/rubber discs. Probably would weigh more, and definitely cost more.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> >
> >
> > --
>
>
> --
 
 
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