X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ej1-f54.google.com ([209.85.218.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 984843 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:44:11 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.54; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ej1-f54.google.com with SMTP id m19so2972616ejl.11 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:44:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=uW7JQm7/niHr1UvIvGleMrsPbPq9xS27iaIK8K2L3Ys=; b=g0fl9g5HgHVf+6iFIdpq9eBCwN3FA+at2ysMjY2j+cKDJLrr6Er1e7oZkx1q4EIvLk LZdvdKv7b+SMxZrgH2wy088XfLvtGhRKF3NyaMozhTTbGCN/Ihqh3WHnInWzBWIz4U8L xOiwaIgocbmbLc9Ya91ysYW3LAC4M9UfCMJuxzcQduDbAaO/VRP0DsMUtY/p5UwPuiqX F4hrllXM7b+pz9ow7wuZg+COMRF0s9aK67pLtyzrMiiI2T8xcpOGeSVj1z7yh1sOhuiv R1b43bsIuFcV0EMXtaldQtdU331qAVWBGZ6+Mx/Zvp324YF9TI5x6sOBdI/FnKCpXjSV mHFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=uW7JQm7/niHr1UvIvGleMrsPbPq9xS27iaIK8K2L3Ys=; b=Cwb6T75kQN8S6QOysClUNyhPP1sGNXUBIA983euIn8GkGbFLGxxaZeH4FohRn9G9f0 4joQ378C8rFUntBNnoThDgx85DyWWnOfJGYPnnAgsVIeqM+e/nbCHgeJu09+kbw6+CTq gCbWQB1BhJ8mY665rO743kqdpZxTKhxns5IQqU66Ah5fziwUmXKBjL1wb8bS4rDeyMde 07XrAgT2zYldnLLQQ0iyucbj5icOUYIKgLYnjDawl/r6+aEhBxRqnfUR5dOnnTOcr0b9 +yLiE+OI2zKhj5rLeOTXk8+Tcs+2Xb74L/Vc/lLRKzQjBHj4StRThi9QHA3g4picUtCT lN7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Yo8WAbZFhp8fJkCifOsv0Kc2uuaBTzXVrz8OdZtszo9M0gmbt noWhjkcnHAJcLLN7aVD8FveO8WOcmRg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxZrlQsVHVZd2Gv3WXCvl3Ezxy3qdZf1aP2DbsVeqsWLXDEeTQLHuKosMd+R94U09A0TLreaw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c357:: with SMTP id ci23mr8663978ejb.311.1606499033486; Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:43:53 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.122] ([160.226.128.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d6sm4802062ejy.114.2020.11.27.09.43.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:43:52 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8CA4E908-7237-467B-ABC8-AE97A198D7FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Redrive Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 19:43:50 +0200 Message-Id: <223799AD-5ED4-4392-8D12-4D65E896B7A7@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) --Apple-Mail-8CA4E908-7237-467B-ABC8-AE97A198D7FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes this is the allumnium body, rear 4 planetary out of the E4OD tranny. This set up is a 2,17 ratio and i planned to replaced it with a 6 planet, st= eel planetary, with the 12 lugs.The steel 12 lug set replacement, beds exact= ly into the machined =E2=80=9Clug locks=E2=80=9D of the old 4 planetary.What= i don=E2=80=99t know if you get a 12 lug plantary to convert to 2.85:1=20 Must admit that this housings looks good, and the late Lou Ross did a good j= ob with the bellhousing - adapter plate ect.First time to see a redrive in r= eality, as here is not any examples of it in ZA.At least the housing bolts s= pot on my 13B and 2 =E2=80=9Cears=E2=80=9D both sides for the engine frame i= s easy in the plugs-up setup. This is my first experience with redrives and did not see any of Tracy=E2=80= =99s RD C series drives maybe the Ross Aero redrive is a little bit heavy bu= t small penalty to pay for bulletproof housings. At least the ouput propellor shaft is gun-drilled to compensate for weight. It seems also a no brainer to convert the flexplate (old clutch spring cente= r ) with a good rubber dampening set up. It seems possible to cut slots on the side of the bellhousing to reached and= inspect the flexplate and proposed rubber dampeners. The ringgear is pressed fit, and i think the housing is warmed before the ri= ngear was pressed into place. So dissasembling, is not so easy job and i will took it to a engineering sho= p to took everything apart. Need your comments and inputs!! Le Roux Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 > On 27 Nov 2020, at 16:29, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I was *wishing for* a 2.4-1 set. :-) >=20 > I do have a vague memory of a discussion on the 'other' rotary list about a= ~2.4- gearset out of a 4 wheel drive truck transfer case. I can't find the p= osts, but I did find a couple of web links showing the transfer case explode= d parts views. It is apparently a Ford NP 271/273 transfer case. > https://www.tbtrans.com/id22.htm > https://www.google.com/search?rlz=3D1C1CHBF_enUS843US843&biw=3D1920&bih=3D= 975&tbm=3Disch&sxsrf=3DACYBGNRAh18RjDO3yokGyLcClJ6Fz5QnKA%3A1572486611161&sa= =3D1&ei=3D0z26XfC_CYrI5gKb-7q4Cw&q=3DProcess+273+transfer+Case+exploded+view= &oq=3DProcess+273+transfer+Case+exploded+view&gs_l=3Dimg.3...207212.213262..= 213795...0.0..0.0.0.......0....1..gws-wiz-img.0dkanelMIPQ&ved=3D0ahUKEwiw9fy= OscXlAhUKpFkKHZu9DrcQ4dUDCAc&uact=3D5 >=20 > I don't think the discussion ever mentioned whether the planetary set woul= d reverse or maintain input shaft direction. The gears would almost certainl= y handle a rotary's torque, but I remember that at the time, I wondered abou= t whether the gears and (especially) the needle bearings in the gearset woul= d handle the 6k-8k rpm of the rotary. I couldn't determine from the drawings= whether the planetary was downstream of an already-reduced rpm driveshaft. >=20 > Maybe you can design one for us. :-) >=20 > Charlie >=20 > Virus-free. www.avast.com >=20 >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 11:59 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >> Thanks Charlie. >> So are there any other ratio=E2=80=99s in the ford sets that can fit our r= eprove housings? >>=20 >> Steve >>=20 >> > On 27 Nov 2020, at 9:08 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >> >=20 >> > I'd agree with you; if you limit the rotary to a 'sane' rpm for aviatio= n use (say, 7000), and use a prop that's typically used on smaller 2 place h= omebuilts with Lycs (meaning 2700 rpm at the prop for 75% power at altitude)= , then somewhere around 2.6-1 makes sense. On the RVs, even the 180 & 200 HP= Lycs use constant speed props that are 74" dia. & turn 2700 rpm. >> > https://shop.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/shop.cgi?ident=3D1606438205-166-6= 87&browse=3Dprops&product=3Dcsprop-hartzell >> > Only reason to turn under 2700 in cruise is if you're highly motivated (= self or legislated) to keep noise to a minimum. >> >=20 >> > Another motivator to keep rpms up is that a lot of prop carvers are in u= ncharted territory when you ask for a 2200 rpm prop. (Right, Sam H. ?) ;-) >> >=20 >> > When I ran numbers treating the Renesis as a 180 HP engine (~6000 rpm, s= upposedly the minimum bearing load rpm) and swinging the big 76" dia prop, I= was wishing for a 2.4-1 ratio (~2500 prop rpm). >> >=20 >> > Charlie >> >=20 >> > On 11/26/2020 5:09 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Why is that? >> >> Tracy made the comment that even the 2.85 which I have is only really u= seful for props >than 74=E2=80=9D >> >> Which I understood to be about the tip speed being to low and ineffici= ent with smaller diameter. >> >> I dont want to spin my engine more than 7500 rpm. >> >>=20 >> >> What am I missing? >> >>=20 >> >> Steve >> >>=20 >> >>=20 >> >>> On 27 Nov 2020, at 7:03 am, Ernest Christley echristley@att.net wrote: >> >>>=20 >> >>> At 70 inches, you would want to go the other way. The C4 gearset was= 3.17, but the problem was the weak planetary gear carrier. But, I just pos= ted a link with a 6 planet carrier. >> >>>=20 >> >>> On Thursday, November 26, 2020, 5:56:14 PM EST, Stephen Izett stephen= .izett@gmail.com wrote: >> >>>=20 >> >>>=20 >> >>> On that note can I ask a gearbox question. >> >>> I=E2=80=99ve always understood we only really had the choice of 2.17 a= nd 2.85 :1 gear ratio options if using the Ford planetary gears. >> >>>=20 >> >>> Looking at our Glasair and I imagine some other aircraft with prop di= ameters of around 70 inches we would prefer a ration around 2.6:1 >> >>> giving us I think a better prop rpm and tip speed. >> >>>=20 >> >>> Are there other options? >> >>>=20 >> >>> Steve Izett >> >>>=20 >> >>>=20 >> >>>=20 >> >>>> On 27 Nov 2020, at 6:32 am, Ernest Christley echristley@att.net wrote: >> >>>>=20 >> >>>> Is that the 4 planet, C4 gear set? If so, I've been made to underst= and that there aluminum body gets wallowed out by the planet gear's shaft. I= recently found that there is a performance shop selling a replacement unit w= ith six planets. I know nothing about them other than that. >> >>>>=20 >> >>>> https://speedmaster79.com/Ford-C4-Transmission-Performance-6-Pinion-= Planetary-Gear-Set >> >>>>=20 >> >>>> On Thursday, November 26, 2020, 3:16:01 PM EST, Le Roux Breytenbach b= reytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: >> >>>>=20 >> >>>>=20 >> >>>> Terry : Thanks Terry for the Ross Redrive the parcel arrived on Mond= ay 23 Nov . >> >>>> Neil if you want some dimensions on the hollow propellor shaft your w= elcome. >> >>>> Regards >> >>>>=20 >> >>>>=20 >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> Le Roux Breytenbach-- >> >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >>>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary= /List.html >> >>>=20 >> >>> -- >> >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html >> >>=20 >> >> -- >> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > --=20 >> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html >=20 >=20 > Virus-free. www.avast.com --Apple-Mail-8CA4E908-7237-467B-ABC8-AE97A198D7FD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes this is the allumnium body, rear 4 plan= etary out of the E4OD tranny.
This set up is a 2,17 ratio and i planned t= o replaced it with a 6 planet, steel planetary, with the 12 lugs.The steel 1= 2 lug set replacement, beds exactly into the machined =E2=80=9Clug locks=E2=80= =9D of the old 4 planetary.What i don=E2=80=99t know if you get a 12 lug pla= ntary to convert to 2.85:1 
Must admit that this housings loo= ks good, and the late Lou Ross did a good job with the bellhousing - adapter= plate ect.First time to see a redrive in reality, as here is not any exampl= es of it in ZA.At least the housing bolts spot on my 13B and 2 =E2=80=9Cears= =E2=80=9D both sides for the engine frame is easy in the plugs-up setup.
This is my first experience with redrives and did not see any of Trac= y=E2=80=99s RD C series drives maybe the Ross Aero redrive is a little bit h= eavy but small penalty to pay for bulletproof housings.
At least t= he ouput propellor shaft is gun-drilled to compensate for weight.
= It seems also a no brainer to convert the flexplate (old clutch spring cente= r ) with a good rubber dampening set up.
It seems possible to cut s= lots on the side of the bellhousing to reached and inspect the flexplate and= proposed rubber dampeners.

The ringgear is pressed= fit, and i think the housing is warmed before the ringear was pressed into p= lace.
So dissasembling, is not so easy job and i will took it to a= engineering shop to took everything apart.

Need yo= ur comments and inputs!!

Le Roux

Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach 

On 27 Nov 2020, at 1= 6:29, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
I was *wishing for* a 2.4-1 set. :-)

I do have a vague memory of a discussion on the 'other' ro= tary list about a ~2.4- gearset out of a 4 wheel drive truck transfer case. I= can't find the posts, but I did find a couple of web links showing the tran= sfer case exploded parts views. It is apparently a Ford NP 271/273 transfer c= ase.
https://www.tbtrans.com/id22.htm
h= ttps://www.google.com/search?rlz=3D1C1CHBF_enUS843US843&biw=3D1920&b= ih=3D975&tbm=3Disch&sxsrf=3DACYBGNRAh18RjDO3yokGyLcClJ6Fz5QnKA%3A157= 2486611161&sa=3D1&ei=3D0z26XfC_CYrI5gKb-7q4Cw&q=3DProcess+273+tr= ansfer+Case+exploded+view&oq=3DProcess+273+transfer+Case+exploded+view&a= mp;gs_l=3Dimg.3...207212.213262..213795...0.0..0.0.0.......0....1..gws-wiz-i= mg.0dkanelMIPQ&ved=3D0ahUKEwiw9fyOscXlAhUKpFkKHZu9DrcQ4dUDCAc&uact=3D= 5

I don't think the= discussion ever mentioned whether the planetary set would reverse or mainta= in input shaft direction. The gears would almost certainly handle a rot= ary's torque, but I remember that at the time, I wondered about whether the g= ears and (especially) the needle bearings in the gearset would handle the 6k= -8k rpm of the rotary. I couldn't determine from the drawings whether the pl= anetary was downstream of an already-reduced rpm driveshaft.

Maybe you can design one for us. :-)
=

Charlie

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 11:59 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :
Thanks Charlie.<= br> So are there any other ratio=E2=80=99s in the ford sets that can fit our rep= rove housings?

Steve

> On 27 Nov 2020, at 9:08 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:
>
> I'd agree with you; if you limit the rotary to a 'sane' rpm for aviatio= n use (say, 7000), and use a prop that's typically used on smaller 2 place h= omebuilts with Lycs (meaning 2700 rpm at the prop for 75% power at altitude)= , then somewhere around 2.6-1 makes sense. On the RVs, even the 180 & 20= 0 HP Lycs use constant speed props that are 74" dia. & turn 2700 rpm. > https://shop.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/shop.cgi?iden= t=3D1606438205-166-687&browse=3Dprops&product=3Dcsprop-hartzell<= br> > Only reason to turn under 2700 in cruise is if you're highly motivated (= self or legislated) to keep noise to a minimum.
>
> Another motivator to keep rpms up is that a lot of prop carvers are in u= ncharted territory when you ask for a 2200 rpm prop. (Right, Sam H. ?) ;-) >
> When I ran numbers treating the Renesis as a 180 HP engine (~6000 rpm, s= upposedly the minimum bearing load rpm) and swinging the big 76" dia prop, I= was wishing for a 2.4-1 ratio (~2500 prop rpm).
>
> Charlie
>
> On 11/26/2020 5:09 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>> Why is that?
>> Tracy made the comment that even the 2.85 which I have is only real= ly useful for props >than 74=E2=80=9D
>> Which I understood to be about the tip speed being to low and ineff= icient with  smaller diameter.
>> I dont want to spin my engine more than 7500 rpm.
>>
>> What am I missing?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>> On 27 Nov 2020, at 7:03 am, Ernest Christley echristley@att.net <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> At 70 inches, you would want to go the other way.  The C4 g= earset was 3.17, but the problem was the weak planetary gear carrier.  B= ut, I just posted a link with a 6 planet carrier.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, November 26, 2020, 5:56:14 PM EST, Stephen Izett <= a href=3D"mailto:stephen.izett@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stephen.izett@gm= ail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On that note can I ask a gearbox question.
>>> I=E2=80=99ve always understood we only really had the choice of= 2.17 and 2.85 :1 gear ratio options if using the Ford planetary gears.
>>>
>>> Looking at our Glasair and I imagine some other aircraft with p= rop diameters of around 70 inches we would prefer a ration around 2.6:1
>>> giving us I think a better prop rpm and tip speed.
>>>
>>> Are there other options?
>>>
>>> Steve Izett
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 27 Nov 2020, at 6:32 am, Ernest Christley echristley@att.net <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is that the 4 planet, C4 gear set?  If so, I've been m= ade to understand that there aluminum body gets wallowed out by the planet g= ear's shaft.  I recently found that there is a performance shop selling= a replacement unit with six planets.  I know nothing about them other t= han that.
>>>>
>>>> https://speedmaster79.com/Ford-C4-Transmission-Performance-6-Pinion-Planeta= ry-Gear-Set
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, November 26, 2020, 3:16:01 PM EST, Le Roux Bre= ytenbach br= eytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry : Thanks Terry for the Ross Redrive the parcel arrive= d on Monday 23 Nov .
>>>> Neil if you want some dimensions on the hollow propellor sh= aft your welcome.
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> Le Roux Breytenbach--
>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>> Archive and UnSub:  ht= tp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub:  http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>
>> --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:   http= ://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
= --Apple-Mail-8CA4E908-7237-467B-ABC8-AE97A198D7FD--