X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f50.google.com ([209.85.208.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 863782 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:06:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.50; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f50.google.com with SMTP id l16so3340099eds.3 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:to; bh=+SijUmbLEcKbyMCeBptg8AJ8QlI3f3HrMugcV9u0JaA=; b=PluCeiD6WsBCM6qltfQbjj2qji+DFeD3S6oGlNHaeYY93wrzu3Set4yyYP8EVqgczT csoIXSmu4mf09LboeHODboTOkfwVvCRsNRIe3ziV+ehLJ4iP0ng92spS4hxnuG9+wSB9 6DIIwKLzGnyigPXA/4Y0TmsS9IEXtjuGmgGXLT07D3lGRCTunWIWOyL3PZ1RtcarSbld k4VL6Cc4yOixCDo7+emLtNr20MeinRnShMNqF6huLSdHlhduCaXHJwxfhVdKOqh/3dKf Xy94j08wBemPW+jcfOm4kLD+uqrSi4KlIdaBZMPFqU8YcnPL+T8Xpn/EidYz1DMp2muv LsEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; bh=+SijUmbLEcKbyMCeBptg8AJ8QlI3f3HrMugcV9u0JaA=; b=hmzw9FEIu3ZTLwZBFe803LWNqV+aF80CHUuvVfIV7MaLae5q104dvwKf5K4Pz5HNhg 5T1ARcm/M5OkRaJtzUyOzKuEpAwVEukLFTyKMaWjhf7lJMzDSAbyi8UEfcjmAdkDgXID lUxs6s4DCadnmtU1QjipMPNfyPfYrnlrE0h4X5wpBmLZze6G6JZYCNvcyDzJT+UEpYbe ZDHDqFGfOvZIFjyOO2kwMd049dQtJ5A8OXW429ZIahRzTw8As7lKyBO2JdhSqHt2V3wA bV47bvLQ3PvJtpqNFHmt5aQz9XzIwtoMyXfFbvpkFyeTdM49joasZmYJvpvSboCPLvoZ nH4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313t2lwa3e/MsnzmcwgoeMNw6g08giwXUSGJgQEGPOdLbToD+H1 Vl1x/Dm7Z1tEVK3tcIgwMloPNPyPk1A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwY0ae+w+5FNa84b7dw1t48piBXVezjz5w2grNRdM1M9uf86XTYFZCoe8DCdFwpLWMLBYlM6g== X-Received: by 2002:a50:d7d8:: with SMTP id m24mr3917193edj.388.1603299957703; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.122] ([160.226.128.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k25sm284114ejz.93.2020.10.21.10.05.55 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-85E1FEC3-734B-4B1A-8020-244E955E4A2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 19:05:54 +0200 Message-Id: <902BF8F1-DD50-4577-B5A9-297753827506@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) --Apple-Mail-85E1FEC3-734B-4B1A-8020-244E955E4A2F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie : Seems to me you got us all. There is no shortage of unanswered que= stions in this rotary world. Hope i am on the right track with a 13 B p- ported with 44 mm intakes to red= uce the overlapp between the intake and exaust ports.Just want the intake fl= ow a little bit better than standard ports on the intakes. My side sump is almost complete will post some photos soon. Hope to develope 180 Hp on =E2=80=9Cfull power=E2=80=9D or thats my goal. Regards Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 > On 21 Oct 2020, at 17:54, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Conventional measurement technique is to measure water temp leaving the en= gine, and oil temp after the oil cooler (before entering the engine). What's= the temp look like after your oil cooler? >=20 > Almost all water cooled conversions seem to have more cooling drag *initia= lly*, because we're all having to experiment with getting cooling optimized i= n an airframe not designed for liquid cooling, in contrast with the 'cookie c= utter' installations of traditional air cooled engines. What airframe? >=20 > 10-12 kts isn't a huge difference. Are all your fairings in place? RVs ty= pically see 12-15 kts increase when the wheel pants & leg fairings are insta= lled. =20 >=20 > What RPM and what MAP (is it wide open throttle) to get the 168 kts?=20 >=20 > Is the 18 gph figure leaned to best power, or full rich? If running fairly= rich (.55-.6 lbs/hp/hr), that would be somewhere between 180 & 200 HP, assu= ming everything is optimized; intake, exhaust, timing, even mixture between r= otors, etc etc. Intake runner length? Exhaust configuration? Supposedly, the= Renesis is insensitive to exhaust tuning (due to zero intake/exhaust overla= p), but still fairly sensitive to back pressure. Did P-porting the intake cr= eate any intake/exhaust overlap, which could affect tuning? >=20 > Charlie >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >> Steve, what are your temps? In Florida, with outside being 90-95F I can t= axi all day long without overheating. On takeoff, I have to throttle back af= ter 1 to 1.5mins because my oil pan gets to 230F. Coolant out is around 215F.= =20 >>=20 >> Cruising around at ~3000ft, 80F OAT @ 2250prop rpm. Oil settles to 215-22= 0F, coolant 185-190F. Maybe 140kts. >>=20 >> My plane is slower and eats more gas to a comparable lycoming. Usually th= ey cruise at 180kts @ 8gph. I'm sitting at 168kts @ 18gph (not verified yet)= . Haven't been past 5000ft yet to see the performance numbers. I know my cow= l needs a good redesign, intake probably doesn't flow the best, oil cooler i= s too small, prop may be off. But so far, not too impressed with the engine.= I highly doubt the P-Port intake RX8 is anywhere near 250hp like Paul said.= >>=20 >> I'll have pics/videos soon (this weekend) of plane and flight data, so yo= u'll see what I'm dealing with. >>=20 >>=20 >> - Matt Boiteau >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 2:38 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >>> Thanks Lyn >>>=20 >>> So PP=E2=80=99ing a Renesis 4 port provide significantly better breathin= g.=20 >>> Is there a porting option for the Renesis 4 port that yields significant= improvement, say 10% hp or is there too little material to play with? >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>>=20 >>> Steve Izett=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:35 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: >>> >=20 >>> > A Periphery ported side exhaust is better than both intake and exhaust= being periphery ported. Neither the intake or exhaust port ever closes. So,= there is exhaust dilution of the intake flow based on the amount of exhaust= back pressure. Up to the point where RPMs do not allow enough time for this= to occur.Then it sort of steps up on the cam and the power comes on as if b= y an electric switch. The full periphery engine tunes like a dirt bike. The= intake length and diameter and the exhaust length and diameter tune like a t= rombone.=20 >>> > A periphery ported 12-A can do 310 HP at 10,000 RPM. A 13-B can do 330= HP at 10,000 RPM. We have to be under 105Db at 50 feet at full throttle. Th= e Renesis has zero overlap. But it had a Micky Mouse intake with 2 different= tuned lengths.=20 >>> > There was a builder at Sun&Fun years ago who had a RX-7 transmission f= or speed reduction. It worked fine. Later he had the idle too slow and it sh= ook the gears of of 2nd gear. I forgot his name but he died of cancer. >>> > LEH >>> > In a message dated 10/20/2020 5:35:49 PM Atlantic Standard Time, flyro= tary@lancaironline.net writes: >>> > =20 >>> > Mat, >>> >=20 >>> > It will only idle hot at that rpm. (1800). Cold it is 200= 0 plus. Yes P ported and the advance seems to vary little from 20 degrees. = Running Fueltech ECU. And running cheapest gas.=20 >>> >=20 >>> > Neil. >>> >=20 >>> > =20 >>> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 >>> > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:38 AM >>> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning >>> >=20 >>> > =20 >>> > Steve =3D Using Megasquirt for ECU. How is your flight testing going? >>> >=20 >>> > Jeff =3D I meant prop rpm. Using Neil's PSRU, which is 3.17. I just bu= mped up my idle to around 800prop (2500engine). I forgot to add, I am P-Port= which causes a need for higher idle.=20 >>> >=20 >>> > Lynn =3D Idle can be that high? Usually I see rotary idle around the 1= 0-18 range, but that is for a car. Little different with a prop on 100% of t= he time. >>> >=20 >>> > =20 >>> > Neil =3D That is a nice idle. I forget, are you P-Port? What is your t= iming at? >>> >=20 >>> > Dave =3D 35 all time? Doesn't that seem really high for rotary. Pump g= as? Lynn was saying 24 degrees for 87 octane. >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > - Matt Boiteau >>> >=20 >>> > =20 >>> > =20 >>> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com= wrote: >>> >=20 >>> > Hi there Matt and all >>> >=20 >>> > What computer is controlling your fuel and spark Matt? >>> >=20 >>> > Ive left the timing of the EC2 on the Renesis 4 port at Tracy=E2=80=99= s default and haven=E2=80=99t changed it but was wanting to do some experime= nting. >>> > I take it that the timing setting in the EC2/3 will vary the whole tim= ing curve over the rpm/load envelope. >>> >=20 >>> > Cheers >>> >=20 >>> > Steve Izett >>> > Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > > On 19 Oct 2020, at 10:21 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>> > >=20 >>> > > Split table. >>> > >=20 >>> > > - Matt Boiteau >>> > >=20 >>> > >=20 >>> > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 10:17 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> > >=20 >>> > > What AFR and timing are people running for idle, taxi, takeoff, clim= b, cruise, descent?=20 >>> > >=20 >>> > > idle =3D 11afr, 20 timing >>> > > I seem to have to be around 11afr for it to stay alive. Still trying= to get it to idle around 600rpm, maybe bump it up to 700rpm to be smoother w= ithout dieing and shaking apart.=20 >>> > >=20 >>> > > taxi / takeoff / climb =3D 13.2afr, 28 timing >>> > >=20 >>> > > cruise - not sure aft, 28 timing >>> > >=20 >>> > > decent - not sure aft, 32 timing >>> > > Not sure what the plane likes. I tried 14afr, but the MAP really get= 's low and engine shakes. Guessing it should be more rich? >>> > >=20 >>> > > I attached the timing table and split rotary table (second email). N= ot sure how to tune timing, I just want safe values for now. >>> > >=20 >>> > >=20 >>> > > - Matt Boiteau >>> > > -- >>> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotar= y/List.html >>> > > -- >>> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotar= y/List.html >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > -- >>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html >>> >=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Li= st.html >=20 >=20 > Virus-free. www.avast.com --Apple-Mail-85E1FEC3-734B-4B1A-8020-244E955E4A2F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Charlie : Seems to me you got us all. T= here is no shortage of unanswered questions in this rotary world.
= Hope i am on the right track with a 13 B p- ported with 44 mm intakes to red= uce the overlapp between the intake and exaust ports.Just want the intake fl= ow a little bit better than standard ports on the intakes.
My side= sump is almost complete will post some photos soon.
Hope to devel= ope 180 Hp on =E2=80=9Cfull power=E2=80=9D or thats my goal.

<= /div>
Regards
Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux= Breytenbach 

On 21 Oct 2020, at 17:54, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Conventional measurement techn= ique is to measure water temp leaving the engine, and oil temp after the oil= cooler (before entering the engine). What's the temp look like after your o= il cooler?

<= /div>
Almost all water= cooled conversions seem to have more cooling drag *initially*, because we'r= e all having to experiment with getting cooling optimized in an airframe not= designed for liquid cooling, in contrast with the 'cookie cutter' installat= ions of traditional air cooled engines. What airframe? =20

10-12 kts isn't a huge diff= erence.  Are all your fairings in place? RVs typically see 12-15 kts increase when the wheel pants & leg fairing= s are installed.   

What RPM and what MAP (is it wide open throttle) to get the 168 kts?&= nbsp;

=
Is the 18 gph figure l= eaned to best power, or full rich? If running fairly rich (.55-.6 lbs/hp/hr)= , that would be somewhere between 180 & 200 HP, assuming everything is o= ptimized; intake, exhaust, timing, even mixture between rotors, etc etc. Int= ake runner length? Exhaust configuration? Supposedly, the Renesis is insensi= tive to exhaust tuning (due to zero intake/exhaust overlap), but still fairl= y sensitive to back pressure. Did P-porting the intake create any intake/exh= aust overlap, which could affect tuning?

Charlie


<= /div>



On Wed, Oct 21, 20= 20 at 8:23 AM Matt Boiteau mattboit= eau@gmail.com <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Steve, what are your temps? In Florida, w= ith outside being 90-95F I can taxi all day long without overheating. On tak= eoff, I have to throttle back after 1 to 1.5mins because my oil pan gets to 2= 30F. Coolant out is around 215F.

Cruising around at ~3000ft, 80= F OAT @ 2250prop rpm. Oil settles to 215-220F, coolant 185-190F. Maybe 1= 40kts.

My plane is slower and eats more gas to a comparable lycoming.= Usually they cruise at 180kts @ 8gph. I'm sitting at 168kts @ 18g= ph (not verified yet). Haven't been past 5000ft yet to see the performance n= umbers. I know my cowl needs a good redesign, intake probably doesn't flow t= he best, oil cooler is too small, prop may be off. But so far, not too i= mpressed with the engine. I highly doubt the P-Port intake RX8 is anywhere n= ear 250hp like Paul said.

I'll have pics/videos soon (this weekend) o= f plane and flight data, so you'll see what I'm dealing with.


- Ma= tt Boiteau


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 2:38 AM S= tephen Izett st= ephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Lyn

So PP=E2=80=99ing a Renesis 4 port provide significantly better breathing. <= br> Is there a porting option for the Renesis 4 port that yields significant imp= rovement, say 10% hp or is there too little material to play with?

Cheers

Steve Izett



> On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:35 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro= te:
>
> A Periphery ported side exhaust is better than both intake and exhaust b= eing periphery ported. Neither the intake or exhaust port ever closes. So, t= here is exhaust dilution of the intake flow based on the amount of exhaust b= ack pressure. Up to the point where RPMs do not allow enough time for this t= o occur.Then it sort of steps up on the cam and the power comes on as if by a= n electric switch. The full periphery engine tunes like a dirt bike.  T= he intake length and diameter and the exhaust length and diameter tune like a= trombone.
> A periphery ported 12-A can do 310 HP at 10,000 RPM. A 13-B can do 330 H= P at 10,000 RPM. We have to be under 105Db at 50 feet at full throttle. The R= enesis has zero overlap. But it had a Micky Mouse intake with 2 different tu= ned lengths.
> There was a builder at Sun&Fun years ago who had a RX-7 transmissio= n for speed reduction. It worked fine. Later he had the idle too slow and it= shook the gears of of 2nd gear. I forgot his name but he died of cancer. > LEH
> In a message dated 10/20/2020 5:35:49 PM Atlantic Standard Time, flyrotary@lancair= online.net writes:
> 
> Mat,
>
>             It will only idle hot at= that rpm. (1800).  Cold it is 2000 plus.  Yes P ported and the ad= vance seems to vary little from 20 degrees.  Running Fueltech ECU. And r= unning cheapest gas.
>
> Neil.
>
> 
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:38 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning
>
> 
> Steve =3D Using Megasquirt for ECU. How is your flight testing going? >
> Jeff =3D I meant prop rpm. Using Neil's PSRU, which is 3.17. I just bum= ped up my idle to around 800prop (2500engine). I forgot to add, I am P-Port w= hich causes a need for higher idle.
>
> Lynn =3D Idle can be that high? Usually I see rotary idle around the 10= -18 range, but that is for a car. Little different with a prop on 100% of th= e time.
>
> 
> Neil =3D That is a nice idle. I forget, are you P-Port? What is your ti= ming at?
>
> Dave =3D 35 all time? Doesn't that seem really high for rotary. Pump ga= s? Lynn was saying 24 degrees for 87 octane.
>
>
> - Matt Boiteau
>
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:
>
> Hi there Matt and all
>
> What computer is controlling your fuel and spark Matt?
>
> Ive left the timing of the EC2 on the Renesis 4 port at Tracy=E2=80=99s= default and haven=E2=80=99t changed it but was wanting to do some experimen= ting.
> I take it that the timing setting in the EC2/3 will vary the whole timi= ng curve over the rpm/load envelope.
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve Izett
> Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C
>
>
>
>
> > On 19 Oct 2020, at 10:21 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:
> >
> > Split table.
> >
> > - Matt Boiteau
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 10:17 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:
> >
> > What AFR and timing are people running for idle, taxi, takeoff, cl= imb, cruise, descent?
> >
> > idle =3D 11afr, 20 timing
> > I seem to have to be around 11afr for it to stay alive. Still tryi= ng to get it to idle around 600rpm, maybe bump it up to 700rpm to be smoothe= r without dieing and shaking apart.
> >
> > taxi / takeoff / climb =3D 13.2afr, 28 timing
> >
> > cruise - not sure aft, 28 timing
> >
> > decent - not sure aft, 32 timing
> > Not sure what the plane likes. I tried 14afr, but the MAP really g= et's low and engine shakes. Guessing it should be more rich?
> >
> > I attached the timing table and split rotary table (second email).= Not sure how to tune timing, I just want safe values for now.
> >
> >
> > - Matt Boiteau
> > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:   htt= p://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> > <split.JPG>--
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:   htt= p://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
= --Apple-Mail-85E1FEC3-734B-4B1A-8020-244E955E4A2F--