X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-io1-f48.google.com ([209.85.166.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 863538 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:54:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.48; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-io1-f48.google.com with SMTP id r9so3676522ioo.7 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:54:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nZllWkdn+ujFkUmyu7Y3D++typ2xv0F1ds3f0MeGDQM=; b=cYSzBE0ivvFdf8b9W/WFlNeMixnfzqGit1Qo1Q9Rqv/rRKNd6WK8QC4uPQxXgRXp0i NaojH4XrNcg64j6Jy6QtJfUbMNcs9VJ0IPqdIi/Oma8m80CHCIVvg0dJEYmEKotqfGZm VL6MMFM7LXe/f4Th2B/462Wx8iy3EjIO3KxbsEo4whiBHfQtfeknN1wqz+qDBBlft4PJ irEMFFIFlw2EH/FvUnUjr75NQ9qXTLYG/33z5P9EF/TU5zOJ00WA89Jbcv2xLI8n9GtB EtK04muHqtwtrRfqNYA80Ox86yRK2khknZgfRLTCM5LF8QBjaHTaepEVPdFgjAS6QCH2 a7SA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=nZllWkdn+ujFkUmyu7Y3D++typ2xv0F1ds3f0MeGDQM=; b=tz8Gi9xNcAhGWwxI5qYvi5zAberAkrN9c8UVxWnaGRH1d8f+GdOH0n7+ohc2hl2Uq6 Gs/3yERMrh2z6PvXG71+Qjk6BRIMs4qpkyVuavJgxIpM1jSjT0QPViPtao3sIQdLLCMZ WecJZAsEwkVz+2CPC4nxgeRA3t3NAq25KW38rYHlde/KnUC7JUQesJcgSLV2dmYiYHzl sR023g5s7g6XVPoLO25JuW8aYycbdinO4izAipPY8sDVIxSmnYzPDA4ywZTaqcvofZ3F VSsb+mHQLmWTXc+ZpOq1Rtr8teMcykAvzAhY5syC+Lz8bAWH0JYWK1lVtXT710OSUCME h0sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GKhdR718iGLycWlDv94c/twFYVeiNWFheMpdFXLfHcAN7MuqV bBcA80mT2I6XxibqrmPdliGbdEPv7nDALDaPc/QhwzjvCK/flg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYA5U0Z+2SIEaGANr/FK+cx6l5mgqjTZKY7LpM/zQhPUeCjc51pwUuJ+gZWcr1lPd2/pYPwjatb2B85+UI9GA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:5ca:: with SMTP id w10mr3392884iox.60.1603295655323; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:54:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:50:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001878f05b2305c4e" --00000000000001878f05b2305c4e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Conventional measurement technique is to measure water temp leaving the engine, and oil temp after the oil cooler (before entering the engine). What's the temp look like after your oil cooler? Almost all water cooled conversions seem to have more cooling drag *initially*, because we're all having to experiment with getting cooling optimized in an airframe not designed for liquid cooling, in contrast with the 'cookie cutter' installations of traditional air cooled engines. What airframe? 10-12 kts isn't a huge difference. Are all your fairings in place? RVs typically see 12-15 kts increase when the wheel pants & leg fairings are installed. What RPM and what MAP (is it wide open throttle) to get the 168 kts? Is the 18 gph figure leaned to best power, or full rich? If running fairly rich (.55-.6 lbs/hp/hr), that would be somewhere between 180 & 200 HP, assuming everything is optimized; intake, exhaust, timing, even mixture between rotors, etc etc. Intake runner length? Exhaust configuration? Supposedly, the Renesis is insensitive to exhaust tuning (due to zero intake/exhaust overlap), but still fairly sensitive to back pressure. Did P-porting the intake create any intake/exhaust overlap, which could affect tuning? Charlie On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Steve, what are your temps? In Florida, with outside being 90-95F I can > taxi all day long without overheating. On takeoff, I have to throttle bac= k > after 1 to 1.5mins because my oil pan gets to 230F. Coolant out is around > 215F. > > Cruising around at ~3000ft, 80F OAT @ 2250prop rpm. Oil settles to > 215-220F, coolant 185-190F. Maybe 140kts. > > My plane is slower and eats more gas to a comparable lycoming. Usually > they cruise at 180kts @ 8gph. I'm sitting at 168kts @ 18gph (not verified > yet). Haven't been past 5000ft yet to see the performance numbers. I know > my cowl needs a good redesign, intake probably doesn't flow the best, oil > cooler is too small, prop may be off. But so far, not too impressed with > the engine. I highly doubt the P-Port intake RX8 is anywhere near 250hp > like Paul said. > > I'll have pics/videos soon (this weekend) of plane and flight data, so > you'll see what I'm dealing with. > > > - Matt Boiteau > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 2:38 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Thanks Lyn >> >> So PP=E2=80=99ing a Renesis 4 port provide significantly better breathin= g. >> Is there a porting option for the Renesis 4 port that yields significant >> improvement, say 10% hp or is there too little material to play with? >> >> Cheers >> >> Steve Izett >> >> >> >> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:35 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> > >> > A Periphery ported side exhaust is better than both intake and exhaust >> being periphery ported. Neither the intake or exhaust port ever closes. = So, >> there is exhaust dilution of the intake flow based on the amount of exha= ust >> back pressure. Up to the point where RPMs do not allow enough time for t= his >> to occur.Then it sort of steps up on the cam and the power comes on as i= f >> by an electric switch. The full periphery engine tunes like a dirt bike. >> The intake length and diameter and the exhaust length and diameter tune >> like a trombone. >> > A periphery ported 12-A can do 310 HP at 10,000 RPM. A 13-B can do 330 >> HP at 10,000 RPM. We have to be under 105Db at 50 feet at full throttle. >> The Renesis has zero overlap. But it had a Micky Mouse intake with 2 >> different tuned lengths. >> > There was a builder at Sun&Fun years ago who had a RX-7 transmission >> for speed reduction. It worked fine. Later he had the idle too slow and = it >> shook the gears of of 2nd gear. I forgot his name but he died of cancer. >> > LEH >> > In a message dated 10/20/2020 5:35:49 PM Atlantic Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> > >> > Mat, >> > >> > It will only idle hot at that rpm. (1800). Cold it is 200= 0 >> plus. Yes P ported and the advance seems to vary little from 20 degrees= . >> Running Fueltech ECU. And running cheapest gas. >> > >> > Neil. >> > >> > >> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:38 AM >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning >> > >> > >> > Steve =3D Using Megasquirt for ECU. How is your flight testing going? >> > >> > Jeff =3D I meant prop rpm. Using Neil's PSRU, which is 3.17. I just >> bumped up my idle to around 800prop (2500engine). I forgot to add, I am >> P-Port which causes a need for higher idle. >> > >> > Lynn =3D Idle can be that high? Usually I see rotary idle around the >> 10-18 range, but that is for a car. Little different with a prop on 100%= of >> the time. >> > >> > >> > Neil =3D That is a nice idle. I forget, are you P-Port? What is your >> timing at? >> > >> > Dave =3D 35 all time? Doesn't that seem really high for rotary. Pump g= as? >> Lynn was saying 24 degrees for 87 octane. >> > >> > >> > - Matt Boiteau >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi there Matt and all >> > >> > What computer is controlling your fuel and spark Matt? >> > >> > Ive left the timing of the EC2 on the Renesis 4 port at Tracy=E2=80=99= s default >> and haven=E2=80=99t changed it but was wanting to do some experimenting. >> > I take it that the timing setting in the EC2/3 will vary the whole >> timing curve over the rpm/load envelope. >> > >> > Cheers >> > >> > Steve Izett >> > Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 19 Oct 2020, at 10:21 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> > > >> > > Split table. >> > > >> > > - Matt Boiteau >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 10:17 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> > > >> > > What AFR and timing are people running for idle, taxi, takeoff, >> climb, cruise, descent? >> > > >> > > idle =3D 11afr, 20 timing >> > > I seem to have to be around 11afr for it to stay alive. Still trying >> to get it to idle around 600rpm, maybe bump it up to 700rpm to be smooth= er >> without dieing and shaking apart. >> > > >> > > taxi / takeoff / climb =3D 13.2afr, 28 timing >> > > >> > > cruise - not sure aft, 28 timing >> > > >> > > decent - not sure aft, 32 timing >> > > Not sure what the plane likes. I tried 14afr, but the MAP really >> get's low and engine shakes. Guessing it should be more rich? >> > > >> > > I attached the timing table and split rotary table (second email). >> Not sure how to tune timing, I just want safe values for now. >> > > >> > > >> > > - Matt Boiteau >> > > -- >> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > > Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > -- >> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > > Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> --00000000000001878f05b2305c4e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Conventional measurement technique is to measure water temp l= eaving the engine, and oil temp after the oil cooler (before entering the e= ngine). What's the temp look like after your oil cooler?

Almost all water cooled conversions see= m to have more cooling drag *initially*, because we're all having to ex= periment with getting cooling optimized in an airframe not designed for liq= uid cooling, in contrast with the 'cookie cutter' installations of = traditional air cooled engines. What airframe? =20

10-12 kts isn't a hu= ge difference.=C2=A0 Are all your fairings in place? RVs typically see 12-15 kts increase when the wheel pants & leg fairin= gs are installed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

What RPM and what MAP (is it wide open throttle) to get the 168 = kts?=C2=A0

=
Is the 18 gph = figure leaned to best power, or full rich? If running fairly rich (.55-.6 l= bs/hp/hr), that would be somewhere between 180 & 200 HP, assuming every= thing is optimized; intake, exhaust, timing, even mixture between rotors, e= tc etc. Intake runner length? Exhaust configuration? Supposedly, the Renesi= s is insensitive to exhaust tuning (due to zero intake/exhaust overlap), bu= t still fairly sensitive to back pressure. Did P-porting the intake create = any intake/exhaust overlap, which could affect tuning?

Charlie





On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Steve, what are= your temps? In Florida, with outside being 90-95F I can taxi all day long = without overheating. On takeoff, I have to throttle back after 1 to 1.5mins= because my oil pan gets to 230F. Coolant out is around 215F.

Cruis= ing=C2=A0around at ~3000ft, 80F OAT=C2=A0@ 2250prop rpm. Oil settles to 215= -220F, coolant 185-190F. Maybe 140kts.

My plane is slower and eats m= ore gas to a comparable lycoming. Usually they cruise at 180kts=C2=A0@ 8gph= . I'm sitting at 168kts=C2=A0@ 18gph (not verified yet). Haven't be= en past 5000ft yet to see the performance numbers. I know my cowl needs a g= ood redesign, intake probably doesn't flow the best, oil cooler is too = small,=C2=A0prop may be off. But so far, not too impressed with the engine.= I highly doubt the P-Port intake RX8 is anywhere near 250hp like Paul said= .

I'll have pics/videos soon (this weekend) of plane and flight = data, so you'll see what I'm dealing with.


- Matt Boitea= u


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 2:38 AM Stephen = Izett stephen.= izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Lyn

So PP=E2=80=99ing a Renesis 4 port provide significantly better breathing. =
Is there a porting option for the Renesis 4 port that yields significant im= provement, say 10% hp or is there too little material to play with?

Cheers

Steve Izett



> On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:35 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
>
> A Periphery ported side exhaust is better than both intake and exhaust= being periphery ported. Neither the intake or exhaust port ever closes. So= , there is exhaust dilution of the intake flow based on the amount of exhau= st back pressure. Up to the point where RPMs do not allow enough time for t= his to occur.Then it sort of steps up on the cam and the power comes on as = if by an electric switch. The full periphery engine tunes like a dirt bike.= =C2=A0 The intake length and diameter and the exhaust length and diameter t= une like a trombone.
> A periphery ported 12-A can do 310 HP at 10,000 RPM. A 13-B can do 330= HP at 10,000 RPM. We have to be under 105Db at 50 feet at full throttle. T= he Renesis has zero overlap. But it had a Micky Mouse intake with 2 differe= nt tuned lengths.
> There was a builder at Sun&Fun years ago who had a RX-7 transmissi= on for speed reduction. It worked fine. Later he had the idle too slow and = it shook the gears of of 2nd gear. I forgot his name but he died of cancer.=
> LEH
> In a message dated 10/20/2020 5:35:49 PM Atlantic Standard Time, flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net writes:
>=C2=A0
> Mat,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It will only idle hot a= t that rpm. (1800).=C2=A0 Cold it is 2000 plus.=C2=A0 Yes P ported and the = advance seems to vary little from 20 degrees.=C2=A0 Running Fueltech ECU. A= nd running cheapest gas.
>
> Neil.
>
>=C2=A0
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:38 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning
>
>=C2=A0
> Steve =3D Using Megasquirt for ECU. How is your flight testing going?<= br> >
> Jeff =3D I meant prop rpm. Using Neil's PSRU, which is 3.17. I jus= t bumped up my idle to around 800prop (2500engine). I forgot to add, I am P= -Port which causes a need for higher idle.
>
> Lynn =3D Idle can be that high? Usually I see rotary idle around the 1= 0-18 range, but that is for a car. Little different with a prop on 100% of = the time.
>
>=C2=A0
> Neil =3D That is a nice idle. I forget, are you P-Port? What is your t= iming at?
>
> Dave =3D 35 all time? Doesn't that seem really high for rotary. Pu= mp gas? Lynn was saying 24 degrees for 87 octane.
>
>
> - Matt Boiteau
>
>=C2=A0
>=C2=A0
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
>
> Hi there Matt and all
>
> What computer is controlling your fuel and spark Matt?
>
> Ive left the timing of the EC2 on the Renesis 4 port at Tracy=E2=80=99= s default and haven=E2=80=99t changed it but was wanting to do some experim= enting.
> I take it that the timing setting in the EC2/3 will vary the whole tim= ing curve over the rpm/load envelope.
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve Izett
> Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C
>
>
>
>
> > On 19 Oct 2020, at 10:21 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:
> >
> > Split table.
> >
> > - Matt Boiteau
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 10:17 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
> >
> > What AFR and timing are people running for idle, taxi, takeoff, c= limb, cruise, descent?
> >
> > idle =3D 11afr, 20 timing
> > I seem to have to be around 11afr for it to stay alive. Still try= ing to get it to idle around 600rpm, maybe bump it up to 700rpm to be smoot= her without dieing and shaking apart.
> >
> > taxi / takeoff / climb =3D 13.2afr, 28 timing
> >
> > cruise - not sure aft, 28 timing
> >
> > decent - not sure aft, 32 timing
> > Not sure what the plane likes. I tried 14afr, but the MAP really = get's low and engine shakes. Guessing it should be more rich?
> >
> > I attached the timing table and split rotary table (second email)= . Not sure how to tune timing, I just want safe values for now.
> >
> >
> > - Matt Boiteau
> > --
> > Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> > <split.JPG>--
> > Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>


--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail= .lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= br>
3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com
--00000000000001878f05b2305c4e--