X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=dFnnagVfVWeg+/bq/M6kfQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DxjPifHaizMA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=yOEelLPZpqEgWXy8HNAA:9 a=CyKaHH8zTNmUVco2:21 a=3aihY689unfCZUB_:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Pp8BsFLfaaRT0iy-HSYA:9 a=b3LnvZc6dxDCEcIv:21 a=dvU9s5SlWnCAAHdD:21 a=ZyCN58TEUWl7-9gz:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com" Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com ([209.85.221.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 673225 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:36:11 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.43; envelope-from=flyboyusvi@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id d16so4572777wrq.9 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:36:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lk8KR1VNRnN0+gMIKSVfvXK/CqEWucohOGCGeQ+hoHA=; b=fvQpAKj9/lWjv9Zd7s0ToSf1tNj9zbNrwbb33oxrk9gT+ziU7Znfw5zppbN07qDrz6 jfuVIkFpKJ+sh6DNTrgbItusuZN59o/md9QzQ7UDHO46puDGTxBra4TK/Z4cJ98jmPST /swVB2J3jAxJyYBHWJWed24tR95wXQNOF7p4+MydbWrP9jRTkqT6EFl7fAn8Q3wDYBqj hfn7mgrNvDO2kEIFGsYlID3y+Uv/Tfat2upvVjkjMexCWoc5kqHkwiWwEIbQdlQepctU 74EmHn/ImNEfMsLoXwG7CC3W3Co0sp7dSxRsj4IKJjoeSEUaGhLW8deOp+/laiTFEG9r XHbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=lk8KR1VNRnN0+gMIKSVfvXK/CqEWucohOGCGeQ+hoHA=; b=Hi7x9xZb83bnkkU1uuaeH3Q6zYn4/cbXgUawbK5UoVu2+f0dgVSTal9eZ+bwumxAWF cZE4U25XggjdLspgykcVnDdxGF+cC8Rvszi7nDFL2FHfP5nHBrdIc1eL9m10PWwi1auW M7fzOI8N/my6N2fcO2/9wnme1aJugwaCcolVZGrPHcspiKN1VqkV8Ywwm/wRLw+pdHbK bSXBKANHyWByc8ws3jR+oYpgh8MSbwTmm/Ycm40gMSxQQJabhbvEIKjBTJgz5ncIKLh/ bTc+suYdxsRJNQhR2zX5sUd3y0JdhZWuSbtXRQIGtLrqLSprNQQvf4+tZhJM8YPV1AGe RTKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Xz5jkiteWz3YxdYN6FFwyqgxFlvsJi5GhVMpyKsP6OxiHBmF5 r8kZj1zWFpUEWLj0oz49GjyPTBgKrhqPqkWJ2Y8g0+hyohN+zQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCT74XHDx6YN2vr2MD2nBqb2XNb1Bwjwqx4XSoVRPyjjDvDIgX50IVNbrgp2HzgYz5OgzRsXUJy/U8NifB3pE= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:464e:: with SMTP id j14mr7476780wrs.361.1598110552801; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:35:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:33:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cfc5c305ad791b11" --000000000000cfc5c305ad791b11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Neil, I was lucky enough to get a private tour of the plane by Paul Lamar and meet many of the people responsible for the great record! I appreciate all the help and advice by such a controversial figure! The rotary community will miss Paul! I certainly do... James Whitehurst On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 20:10 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: > James, > > I believe you are looking at something like the TTC engin= e > with the turbo they used. What was it,- 500HP or there about? I thought > it would have blown apart, but still exists. Someone will have the detai= ls > =E2=80=93 possibly young Paul Lamar? > > Best, Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, August 22, 2020 9:53 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Thanks to Dave and Bobby for the comments. All the info helps me put this > puzzle together.=F0=9F=A4=94 > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 12:21 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > James, > > > > In a perfect world I would have considered something like that. I have n= o > experience with Borg Warner - except that I did buy one on e-bay once. T= he > large A/R and other specs you mention seem about right to me, but you > should really dig up a compressor map and plot some points to be sure. T= he > BW I bought was big and I could not find the proper clamps to hold the > exhaust onto the turbo. In short, the installation would have taken a lo= t > longer than the modified stock turbo, but it would have been more optimal= . > Good Luck. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:04 AM James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B. > > But...anyone out there with experience with the situation can share. I > have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water > cooled ceramic bearing Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to > keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This > should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp > available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the > C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise > will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / ga= s > bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. > Advise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst > > > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it > in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to.= I > couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. > Thanks james Whitehurst. > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com > wrote: > > Todd, > > Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my > turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight fr= om > the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm wit= h > a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. > > > > Neil > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to change > out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed the > wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That > gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist. I= ts > perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator an= d > will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. > Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. > > > > It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the > Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. > Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. > > > > We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine > the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to sav= e > on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this mea= ns > I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what I can do > about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have enou= gh > spare parts to build another airplane. > > As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not > asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but again > this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me has > made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up t= he > ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none. > > I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart > controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I > may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I > receive it. > > Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently > removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to > space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I now > think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity wit= h > some space freed up to do a better install. > > Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the > big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing i= t > told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine, > behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thing > to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary > alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit = of > free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably > require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Dave; > > Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the > wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? > > I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to > know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rather > than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14psi > spring. > > I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart > electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressures > at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the > actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring > pressure is. > > One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engine > was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 roto= rs. > > Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my > boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. > > When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without > detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the engin= e > to regularly. > > > > Thanks, Todd > > > > > > > > On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Dave; > > I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was > looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should hav= e > then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. > > But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm > thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you d= o, > if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go f= or > the "stage 4". > > The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for = a > larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could sourc= e > those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know enough abo= ut > my starting point it's not very realistic to find the finish line without= a > significant investment in time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have > more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core > charge is good value when you have to deal with international shipping. > > So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over > the edge and call him back with my visa#. > > If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past > this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. > > > > Todd > > (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that > there is less fans than my beer league games) > > > > > > > > On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Todd, > > Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. Have > tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the = job. > Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 > cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path o= f > fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that to= o > many times before. > > Thanks, Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Neil; > > I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it > was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later th= is > fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just g= et > one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a > no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. > Then I'm only paying shipping one way. > > So for you that would make even more sense. > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave and all, > > Finally great advice that I cannot get > anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line go= es dead. The oil > cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo > failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that= can fit > into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- > all 5 gallons of it. > > Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight > both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will be > $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be > another $300 at least. > > > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Dave; > > What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? > > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. > > > > Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its > proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be > giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps > you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not goi= ng > to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to > achieve it. > > > > The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b it > ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts. > I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see wh= at > I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for > about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runnin= g > over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably onl= y > lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. > The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home and > decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k > altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. > > > > My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-of= f > valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my > installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the > exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you ca= n > get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you > need. > > > > Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are > realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to > fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste > various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the > internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Try > to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away > from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You wi= ll > find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily > available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an > aircraft. > > > > Best, > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Group, > > I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I > settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to > not get into > > any overspeed problems..........FWIW > > > > http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 > > > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave, > > Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the > upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock > Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > James, > > I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have > options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the > level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about > Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or > TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. > > > > Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate variou= s > parameters in selecting a turbo. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > James, > > 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Thi= nk they > have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying t= o > get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to > drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi turb= os > for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. > > There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight > only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much t= o > go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that > may fit. > > Best, Neil. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and > size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience i= s > appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from > aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for > turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it > in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to.= I > couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. > Thanks james Whitehurst. > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com > wrote: > > Todd, > > Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my > turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight fr= om > the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm wit= h > a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. > > > > Neil > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to change > out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed the > wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That > gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist. I= ts > perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator an= d > will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. > Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. > > > > It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the > Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. > Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. > > > > We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine > the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to sav= e > on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this mea= ns > I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what I can do > about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have enou= gh > spare parts to build another airplane. > > As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not > asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but again > this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me has > made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up t= he > ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none. > > I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart > controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I > may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I > receive it. > > Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently > removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to > space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I now > think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity wit= h > some space freed up to do a better install. > > Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the > big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing i= t > told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine, > behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thing > to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary > alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit = of > free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably > require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Dave; > > Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the > wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? > > I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to > know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rather > than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14psi > spring. > > I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart > electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressures > at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the > actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring > pressure is. > > One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engine > was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 roto= rs. > > Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my > boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. > > When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without > detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the engin= e > to regularly. > > > > Thanks, Todd > > > > > > > > On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Dave; > > I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was > looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should hav= e > then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. > > But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm > thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you d= o, > if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go f= or > the "stage 4". > > The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for = a > larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could sourc= e > those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know enough abo= ut > my starting point it's not very realistic to find the finish line without= a > significant investment in time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have > more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core > charge is good value when you have to deal with international shipping. > > So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over > the edge and call him back with my visa#. > > If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past > this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. > > > > Todd > > (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that > there is less fans than my beer league games) > > > > > > > > On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Todd, > > Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. Have > tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the = job. > Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 > cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path o= f > fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that to= o > many times before. > > Thanks, Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Neil; > > I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it > was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later th= is > fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just g= et > one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a > no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. > Then I'm only paying shipping one way. > > So for you that would make even more sense. > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave and all, > > Finally great advice that I cannot get > anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line go= es dead. The oil > cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo > failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that= can fit > into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- > all 5 gallons of it. > > Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight > both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will be > $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be > another $300 at least. > > > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Dave; > > What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? > > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. > > > > Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its > proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be > giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps > you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not goi= ng > to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to > achieve it. > > > > The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b it > ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts. > I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see wh= at > I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for > about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runnin= g > over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably onl= y > lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. > The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home and > decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k > altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. > > > > My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-of= f > valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my > installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the > exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you ca= n > get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you > need. > > > > Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are > realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to > fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste > various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the > internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Try > to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away > from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You wi= ll > find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily > available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an > aircraft. > > > > Best, > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Group, > > I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I > settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to > not get into > > any overspeed problems..........FWIW > > > > http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 > > > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave, > > Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the > upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock > Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > James, > > I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have > options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the > level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about > Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or > TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. > > > > Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate variou= s > parameters in selecting a turbo. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > James, > > 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Thi= nk they > have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying t= o > get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to > drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi turb= os > for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. > > There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight > only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much t= o > go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that > may fit. > > Best, Neil. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and > size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience i= s > appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from > aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for > turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst > > > > > --000000000000cfc5c305ad791b11 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Neil, I was lucky enough to get a private tour of = the plane by Paul Lamar and meet many of the people responsible for the gre= at=C2=A0 record! I appreciate all the help and advice by such a controversi= al figure! The rotary community will miss Paul! I certainly do...=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 James Whitehurst

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 20:10 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I believe you are looking at something like the= TTC engine with the turbo they used.=C2=A0 What was it,- 500HP or there ab= out?=C2=A0 I thought it would have blown apart, but still exists.=C2=A0 Som= eone will have the details =E2=80=93 possibly young Paul Lamar?

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.<= u>

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 9:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=

=C2=A0

= Thanks to Dave and Bobby for the comments. All the info helps me put this p= uzzle together.=F0=9F=A4=94

= =C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020,= 12:21 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0

In a perfect world I would have considered someth= ing like that.=C2=A0 I have no experience with Borg Warner - except that I = did buy one on e-bay once.=C2=A0 The large A/R and other specs you mention = seem about right to me, but you should really dig up a compressor map and p= lot some points to be sure.=C2=A0 The BW I bought was big and I could not f= ind the proper clamps to hold the exhaust onto the turbo.=C2=A0 In short, t= he installation would have taken a lot longer than the modified stock turbo= , but it would have been more optimal.=C2=A0 Good Luck.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 2= 0, 2020 at 6:04 AM James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B.

But...anyone out there with experience with the situation = can share. I have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil= and water cooled ceramic bearing=C2=A0 Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scrol= l 1.45 AR to keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine whee= l. This should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 h= p available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the= C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise = will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / gas = bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. Adv= ise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst

=C2=A0

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough = to use it in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you refe= rred to. I couldn't=C2=A0 access the info? Any help or guidance would b= e appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst.

=C2=A0

On Thu,= Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net> wrote:

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my turbo.= =C2=A0 Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0 Saving freight = from the US if successful.=C2=A0 Called precision turbos.=C2=A0 Seem to be = a US firm with a local branch.=C2=A0 Hopefully I can get what I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:= 39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's= in aircraft

=C2=A0=

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I dont think you wi= ll miss the AMU. It is easy enough to change out the actuator.=C2=A0 I have= 2 turbos from BNR.=C2=A0 In one I removed the wastegate flapper all togeth= er and just left the hole wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me about 42" MAP= at sea level and protects me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its perfect for my e= veryday flying.=C2=A0 The other one uses the stock actuator and will give m= e 45" at 10k density altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my race turbo. =C2=A0 N= othing like raging around at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the gas bill either.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

It will be easy enough to use your= TurboSmart.=C2=A0 Bummer they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.=C2=A0 Seemed li= ke a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull they still port = the wastegate a little.

= =C2=A0

We definitely hav= e to get together for a hockey game sometime.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2= =A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 a= t 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:

I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longe= r machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charg= e to save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx.= So this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll s= ee what=C2=A0I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty= soon I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane.=

=C2=A0 As they say "ignorance is b= liss", and I was content to think I was not asking much of my turbo an= d so I didn't have to worry about it, but again this list has proven it= s value as random info not even directed at me has made me aware that at an= y given time my poor little turbo could give up the ghost and leave me look= ing for a place to put down where there are none.

=C2=A0 I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the ac= tuator, as the TurboSmart controller will allow me to achieve more at the t= ouch of a button. But I may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I= 'll decide when I receive=C2=A0it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler ins= tallation. I had recently removed it as I didn't feel it was a very eff= ective installation due to space constraints=C2=A0and didn't think it w= as really doing much for me. I now think it was doing more than I thought, = but I now have an opportunity with some space freed up to do a better insta= ll.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last ye= ar I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the big old lead= acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing it told me was = that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine, behind th= e turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thing to move ov= er to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary alternator. So = I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit of free space in = which to mount the intercooler, however=C2=A0it will probably require some = modification. This is all yet to be determined....

<= div>


Todd Bartrim

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug = 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the wa= stegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring?

=C2=A0 I told him I would rather use my = own wastegate, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about when= I told him it was a piston type rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting= that I'd want to use his with a 14psi spring.

<= div>

I also want the lowest possible spring pressure = as I have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller which can give higher pr= e-programed pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressu= re signal to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than wh= at the spring pressure is.

=C2=A0 One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my = engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1= rotors.

=C2=A0 Fot that= reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to 6p= si, which is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw ab= out 16 psi without detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to = subject the engine to regularly.

=C2=A0

Thanks, = Todd

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure h= e really got what I was looking for as he started by saying that a "st= age 3" is what I should have then said probably a "stage 1" = would be good for me.

= =C2=A0 But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm= thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that yo= u do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might = as well go for the "stage 4".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The "stage 4" involves machining the= exhaust housing to make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others d= on't. So I wonder if I could source those other items and do this mysel= f. But as I don't even know enough about my starting point it's not= very realistic to find the finish line without a significant investment in= time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I&#= 39;m also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when = you have to deal with international shipping.=C2=A0

=

So I guess I just need someone to give me a lit= tle shove to push me over the edge and call him back with my visa#.<= u>

=C2=A0 If he had an "add t= o cart" button on his website I think we'd be past this point afte= r a few beers watching playoff hockey.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0Todd

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0(The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that the= re is less fans than my beer league games)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 123= 48ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what I was th= inking.=C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2= =80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 e= ach way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, and see what = eventuates as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not w= ant to start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many times before.=

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
<= b>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircra= ft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He= said it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe l= ater this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he coul= d just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That'= ;s kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down= to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way.

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So for you that would make even mo= re sense.=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally great = advice that I cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80= =9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well fo= r I have personal experience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80= =93 you would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!= =C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallon= s of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a = turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy = with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo= .=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $300 at least.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Wh= at did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3,= 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO= 4-E50 in my post above.

=C2=A0=

Mark, its not about the= horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environmen= t for the conditions you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "= 300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a= specific=C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to l= and much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to achiev= e it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

The stock hitachi you m= ention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only = rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you= are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would = get.=C2=A0 I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about = 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was runn= ing over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0= It probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runni= ng full power.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2= =A0 I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was run= ning=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 mi= n doing that.

=C2=A0<= /u>

My advice, if you want to e= xperiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line = to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo= =C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without= a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2= =A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you need.=

=C2=A0

=

Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you.= =C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for how much boost at what altitu= de you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those param= eters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.= =C2=A0 They are available on the internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0one= s are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center i= sland of efficiency while staying away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0= Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys = suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You= will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an aircraft.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Best,

Dave Leonard

=C2= =A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 a= t 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I sett= led on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so= as to not get into=C2=A0

any overspeed problems..........FWIW

=C2=A0

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industri= al/product/turbochargers-0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kelly troyer

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:5= 1 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:

Dave,

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think yo= u got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP fr= om the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectatio= n?

Neil= .

=C2= =A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM=
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in a= ircraft

=C2=A0<= /p>

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They= also have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0C= ost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I = had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.=C2= =A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level.

=C2=A0

<= /div>

Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that= you can use to evaluate various parameters in selecting a turbo.=

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On = Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= div>

James,=

= =C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonna= rd.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been a= round the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis whic= h does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $450= 0 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go= while the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in = south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking= mine up now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2= =A0 Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

From= : Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and= size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is= appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from aircraft.= .. or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for tu= rbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst


=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /p>

Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enou= gh to use it in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you r= eferred to. I couldn't=C2=A0 access the info? Any help or guidance woul= d be appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst.

=C2=A0

On = Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my turbo= .=C2=A0 Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0 Saving freight= from the US if successful.=C2=A0 Called precision turbos.=C2=A0 Seem to be= a US firm with a local branch.=C2=A0 Hopefully I can get what I am after.<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3= :39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b'= s in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I dont think you w= ill miss the AMU. It is easy enough to change out the actuator.=C2=A0 I hav= e 2 turbos from BNR.=C2=A0 In one I removed the wastegate flapper all toget= her and just left the hole wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me about 42" MA= P at sea level and protects me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its perfect for my = everyday flying.=C2=A0 The other one uses the stock actuator and will give = me 45" at 10k density altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my race turbo. =C2=A0 = Nothing like raging around at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the gas bill either.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

It will be easy enough to use your= TurboSmart.=C2=A0 Bummer they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.=C2=A0 Seemed li= ke a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull they still port = the wastegate a little.

= =C2=A0

We definitely hav= e to get together for a hockey game sometime.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2= =A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 a= t 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:

I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longe= r machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charg= e to save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx.= So this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll s= ee what=C2=A0I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty= soon I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane.=

=C2=A0 As they say "ignorance is b= liss", and I was content to think I was not asking much of my turbo an= d so I didn't have to worry about it, but again this list has proven it= s value as random info not even directed at me has made me aware that at an= y given time my poor little turbo could give up the ghost and leave me look= ing for a place to put down where there are none.

=C2=A0 I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the ac= tuator, as the TurboSmart controller will allow me to achieve more at the t= ouch of a button. But I may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I= 'll decide when I receive=C2=A0it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler ins= tallation. I had recently removed it as I didn't feel it was a very eff= ective installation due to space constraints=C2=A0and didn't think it w= as really doing much for me. I now think it was doing more than I thought, = but I now have an opportunity with some space freed up to do a better insta= ll.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last ye= ar I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the big old lead= acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing it told me was = that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine, behind th= e turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thing to move ov= er to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary alternator. So = I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit of free space in = which to mount the intercooler, however=C2=A0it will probably require some = modification. This is all yet to be determined....

<= div>


Todd Bartrim

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug = 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the wa= stegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring?

=C2=A0 I told him I would rather use my = own wastegate, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about when= I told him it was a piston type rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting= that I'd want to use his with a 14psi spring.

<= div>

I also want the lowest possible spring pressure = as I have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller which can give higher pr= e-programed pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressu= re signal to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than wh= at the spring pressure is.

=C2=A0 One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my = engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1= rotors.

=C2=A0 Fot that= reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to 6p= si, which is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw ab= out 16 psi without detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to = subject the engine to regularly.

=C2=A0

Thanks, = Todd

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure h= e really got what I was looking for as he started by saying that a "st= age 3" is what I should have then said probably a "stage 1" = would be good for me.

= =C2=A0 But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm= thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that yo= u do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might = as well go for the "stage 4".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The "stage 4" involves machining the= exhaust housing to make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others d= on't. So I wonder if I could source those other items and do this mysel= f. But as I don't even know enough about my starting point it's not= very realistic to find the finish line without a significant investment in= time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I&#= 39;m also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when = you have to deal with international shipping.=C2=A0

=

So I guess I just need someone to give me a lit= tle shove to push me over the edge and call him back with my visa#.<= u>

=C2=A0 If he had an "add t= o cart" button on his website I think we'd be past this point afte= r a few beers watching playoff hockey.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0Todd

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0(The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that the= re is less fans than my beer league games)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 123= 48ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what I was th= inking.=C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2= =80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 e= ach way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, and see what = eventuates as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not w= ant to start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many times before.=

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
<= b>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircra= ft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He= said it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe l= ater this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he coul= d just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That'= ;s kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down= to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way.

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So for you that would make even mo= re sense.=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally great = advice that I cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80= =9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well fo= r I have personal experience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80= =93 you would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!= =C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallon= s of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a = turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy = with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo= .=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $300 at least.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Wh= at did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3,= 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO= 4-E50 in my post above.

=C2=A0=

Mark, its not about the= horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environmen= t for the conditions you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "= 300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a= specific=C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to l= and much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to achiev= e it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

The stock hitachi you m= ention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only = rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you= are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would = get.=C2=A0 I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about = 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was runn= ing over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0= It probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runni= ng full power.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2= =A0 I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was run= ning=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 mi= n doing that.

=C2=A0<= /u>

My advice, if you want to e= xperiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line = to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo= =C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without= a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2= =A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you need.=

=C2=A0

=

Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you.= =C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for how much boost at what altitu= de you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those param= eters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.= =C2=A0 They are available on the internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0one= s are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center i= sland of efficiency while staying away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0= Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys = suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You= will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an aircraft.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Best,

Dave Leonard

=C2= =A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 a= t 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I sett= led on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so= as to not get into=C2=A0

any overspeed problems..........FWIW

=C2=A0

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industri= al/product/turbochargers-0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kelly troyer

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:5= 1 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:

Dave,

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think yo= u got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP fr= om the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectatio= n?

Neil= .

=C2= =A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM=
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in a= ircraft

=C2=A0<= /p>

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They= also have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0C= ost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I = had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.=C2= =A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level.

=C2=A0

<= /div>

Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that= you can use to evaluate various parameters in selecting a turbo.=

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On = Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= div>

James,=

= =C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonna= rd.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been a= round the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis whic= h does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $450= 0 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go= while the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in = south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking= mine up now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2= =A0 Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

From= : Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and= size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is= appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from aircraft.= .. or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for tu= rbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst


=C2=A0=

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