X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=qEyu8jQXlOQmHhcnk2o+/w==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=XCnkGLEC4lIA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=b7qjxth685JFZGsmvwMA:9 a=sGMHcLUC2IZcsRgq:21 a=X-ojo7nMX7cF4ozh:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=AEEbJYWfOgqKUwxC:21 a=40UszBTKH7lW6Z_G:21 a=4-__w06UtqFIE0r3:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic315-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.134.124] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 666644 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:32:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.134.124; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1597962736; bh=tzkaOCDNbL1NYlPooACylRttJB00bpeyuf6qM7SZOxA=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=IJHhYGdTEg0lwwPHq4xK1X7JWnb/FeUsaqutZxcgPPjBLf2mH/tVfmVEgXeMBGaVhCixNdxw6158ayRGRy4lIcq2DocOGPYn03VZ40cNqDtLouBAUj9Hhje9Yk/TsrGWevXgg7qbMYKRsfIXj6R8t2SyZ4HslLJ+XNWoAb3nA0cn6XheAtqnOcqE5el249Sgo6afV+OBHu0N4tdT/34rbF1hR0afFobgaWAJKDKX6k+7aSLSnptg/lh3SpjpBD408kn2x+H1M8KBZP/jBjVcbdX/XkWGRjZebGLj+HtcLPtLxyEUQM7KBAmiwP5d0SsDi/+Bvs8r8AkJKo+OelH8Kw== X-YMail-OSG: wUhKpVwVM1mIeT9BPTTmqxnNo_589QsnsdE5zPx2EAdEa_HzxYFrw7zrxtgEHjF Fld3ZjGApOqtv3jqd2DpTb57l_yc1beEzP4HS5CBqPV.3z1AQDEvlBrISMdBYfeyqQbsyaXQAIPm TERMQ7ctWJBLuF1tWJ_.aptrFBsshGXMPIAHZJEBzjeeUL1vUe8dG0UgfGltPhrsE9eBTrT0JpPz I39Ot7VroaSJwJQ0J0E4dkvDkVmroPDax3NfWdiJp53Ww1IIDBGZeEjaO5BZkhNW8kfBbYe6y3Ke O6AMxnQzvpg1bXdCJNkkcFljoFdVO7g4TifgIdkb34n9NufKzPes.YyN1Si_ldY3V.wJzWmsax_N PkagRQp2ltXXniZONSiDqidgYITEsuOq5M1Tlx_ASW_0d68iNH3p3jJYfdsEXX5XGPg86ofzSw4a SCClHzA3n2J3VCig1uIB1crxlEGcqzgO2MUwQgqo.doJtSkcFLHjDxgBXCO1.4gX01dxUnPyJ3B2 4ikcxYX.ldowLH_L1Xy.1wdu7kdfkAwUKpwG0_NXE8EkD.gvaOqq7XWSiePSxvk0WsYCcxlRZI0w .gzTcaeAxcYCwVg3uKKYTUxvV4zkGANTYMZ57egRGivct1wFMP66GHgH.n4PHQFYJdsM3c6Mqb5c DKvmw5QdKL52fShab9_mkcFi2xVHyfAOBQCJfRHopnDCsRnJjI8matryhVZSkgbtt7wVC4QOwwGH Xr20RC9v7UB34_BBqxfCW6dlxNASyxRHWKZxXjF2YfIo0ry9yyM_JhHStDmR7Wl1DsOHPDoPsOS4 6nTL24L5beHrQWYQwJRyJd.rCpDzx45iIFdh6n5vBr_SPEB3OS89aep0UpnL7NQNFO5kb.LlSinV 3ldrUXQmqcG.vnFdDsMV4MyNH1uAoaMKPKFMlf5yBp3qR33kOIuV2kGH1yF.E3Ww4IhwPpnX4Sel WALAce2zA2lmJ6PzQk8t_vzCjKREvsL.NNW.CDLFgBB8lVv5GqjXh5MLpl3tb8M1mvWXNFlMYciK rrvlxRED6ER7oZF3vI41uv6vAfocKq753ZjG3wjXwLAY4O7qGaYJ87BSOKhTsxIWY9.UnpQRkZnN WLKjsyCrZELnHk1v25MhgoTdFaNaAxtUtMhl1_ABCWVqmqsz.4poUU6P8Azmx0m2xOIOnoaD3PZS aOSCEAtvqzwGe9wOrR4m7bTpTzDZwoWHO6oAkcQtS2eQ0PZY7FHGdrDy2WVWU8ePB1lzx1gLQpvS E7H5V4OZevfh._1FOHFhMnYsP9ypDm6XvRWlCp5yTu0.uzYIl0tXrlNjtqG8FojWlGqesWNQY0dR 3dH3TpnrMgCm3k7xKEt56YLbKGe2OC9sUB2JjcaCqrG1LHWC0479dBUfbHRUlzPGlz0N.aTYf0Sk Bg62JgME5B2ECPv2iFR8x71NErUIFD.5uX.bbaEhesHMEb4sSS_uYA8_8ky__Z5E_mP0DbBevmtd W Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:32:16 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:32:13 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <2026469177.3945533.1597962733830@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water direction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3945532_69427835.1597962733827" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16455 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_252) Content-Length: 14325 ------=_Part_3945532_69427835.1597962733827 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or, you can install an accumulator such as used in hydraulic systems. The e= arly Mazdas did this. A make up bottle on the firewall had the pressure cap= installed on it that had usually been installed on the fill port on the ra= diator. Just a cap on the radiator to seal it but no pressure control syste= m. The make up bottle (accumulator)is filled to 3/4 of its volume with cool= ant. As the engine heats up, bubbles in the coolant find the top of the rad= iator and then up the hose to the bottom of the accumulator where they pop = up through the coolant to the top space into the air. When the volume (pres= sure) of the coolant is reduced=C2=A0 as in a lower throttle setting or clo= sed throttle, only coolant can return to the system.=C2=A0 After several he= ating cycles most of the air entrained in the coolant will have been remove= d and you must add more coolant to the bottle. Mazda invented this, not me.= Works great. The bottle need not be mounted higher than the water pump at = all. The racer had the bottle on the passenger floor. Worked great. The extra coolant in the bottle could mean a bit more time under power in t= he event of a leak. There are a number of shapes available in circle track = catalogs. You can also rig a pressure gage on the bottle and a Schrader val= ve to pre pressurize the system before start up. The pressure cap will blee= d off only air as the temps come up to normal and then stop bleeding at its= rated pressure. In olden times the center iron had a port to remove air fr= om the system as it was being filled. The rotary has a problem with holding= much air in nooks and crannies in the coolant channels in the engine. Only= a few blasts to operating speed will produce a high enough flow rate to mo= ve this air along so it can be removed. Some assembly may be required. The = batteries are not included. LEH In a message dated 8/20/2020 5:44:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: Charlie, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yeah, dead right,=C2=A0 Putting the water pump = right at the bottom of the engine for that reason. Neil. =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 11:27 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water direction =C2=A0 Neil, =20 If you're using an electric pump, the one change that should be simple to d= o and would improve the system design is to move the pump location physical= ly lower. I'm working from a very old memory here, but IIRC, the one real d= ownside to the rotary's pump location is that it's at the top of the engine= . That means that if for some reason you start losing coolant, the pump qui= ckly loses its ability to move water. Again, if memory is correct, with the= pump at the 'bottom' of the system, you can keep coolant flowing for a bit= longer. It won't cure anything, but if you have a pressure leak it might k= eep coolant moving long enough to find a landing site. =20 I suppose it could have a slight benefit in the sense=C2=A0that it'll alway= s have at least a little bit of pressure on the inlet, which could slightly= reduce the risk of cavitation. =20 If my memory is defective, hopefully someone else will correct me. =20 Charlie =C2=A0 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote: The water flow direction is important, the standard takes heat from the hot= side and tries to keep the coild side near the same temperature to avoid t= he engine "becoming a banana". The impeller type pumps used in engines are = primarily 'pushers' =C2=A0 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 2:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: Hi Neil. Two thoughts I imagine that might create issues: 1. Energy transfer down due to delta T being lower, increasing the danger o= f nucleate boiling near the plugs 2. Creating a higher differential between the hot and cold sides of the eng= ine producing increased expansion differences across the engine. Question: Do impeller pumps that we use suck and push equally well? My gues= s is that they don=E2=80=99t. If this doesn=E2=80=99t matter would it help with the physical layout to su= ck the water through rather than push it through? Cheers Steve Izett > On 20 Aug 2020, at 3:30 pm, 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > Gents, >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looking toda= y how to hook up my electric water pump.=C2=A0 The simplest is to send the = water reverse to a standard pump.=C2=A0 I do understand the hot side and th= e colder side but with the water being changes every 1 - 2 seconds, does th= is really matter? > Thoughts? >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Neil. -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html ------=_Part_3945532_69427835.1597962733827 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Or, you can install an accumulator such as used in hy= draulic systems. The early Mazdas did this. A make up bottle on the firewal= l had the pressure cap installed on it that had usually been installed on t= he fill port on the radiator. Just a cap on the radiator to seal it but no = pressure control system. The make up bottle (accumulator)
is filled to 3/4 of its volume with coolant. As the e= ngine heats up, bubbles in the coolant find the top of the radiator and the= n up the hose to the bottom of the accumulator where they pop up through th= e coolant to the top space into the air. When the volume (pressure) of the = coolant is reduced  as in a lower throttle setting or closed throttle,= only coolant can return to the system.  After several heating cycles = most of the air entrained in the coolant will have been removed and you mus= t add more coolant to the bottle. Mazda invented this, not me. Works great.= The bottle need not be mounted higher than the water pump at all. The race= r had the bottle on the passenger floor. Worked great.
The extra coolant in the bottle could mean a bit more= time under power in the event of a leak. There are a number of shapes avai= lable in circle track catalogs. You can also rig a pressure gage on the bot= tle and a Schrader valve to pre pressurize the system before start up. The = pressure cap will bleed off only air as the temps come up to normal and the= n stop bleeding at its rated pressure. In olden times the center iron had a= port to remove air from the system as it was being filled. The rotary has = a problem with holding much air in nooks and crannies in the coolant channe= ls in the engine. Only a few blasts to operating speed will produce a high = enough flow rate to move this air along so it can be removed. Some assembly= may be required. The batteries are not included. LEH

In a message dated 8/20/2020 5:44:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes:

Charlie,

   =             &nb= sp;  Yeah, dead right,  Putting the water pump right at the botto= m of the engine for that reason.

Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Th= ursday, August 20, 2020 11:27 PM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Water direction

 

Neil= ,

If y= ou're using an electric pump, the one change that should be simple to do an= d would improve the system design is to move the pump location physically l= ower. I'm working from a very old memory here, but IIRC, the one real downs= ide to the rotary's pump location is that it's at the top of the engine. Th= at means that if for some reason you start losing coolant, the pump quickly= loses its ability to move water. Again, if memory is correct, with the pum= p at the 'bottom' of the system, you can keep coolant flowing for a bit lon= ger. It won't cure anything, but if you have a pressure leak it might keep = coolant moving long enough to find a landing site.

I su= ppose it could have a slight benefit in the sense that it'll always ha= ve at least a little bit of pressure on the inlet, which could slightly red= uce the risk of cavitation.

If m= y memory is defective, hopefully someone else will correct me.

Char= lie

 

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM William= Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

The water flow direction is important, = the standard takes heat from the hot side and tries to keep the coild side = near the same temperature to avoid the engine "becoming a banana". The impe= ller type pumps used in engines are primarily 'pushers'

 

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 2:11 AM Stephen= Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Neil.

Two thoughts I imagine = that might create issues:
1. Energy transfer down due to delta T being l= ower, increasing the danger of nucleate boiling near the plugs
2. Creati= ng a higher differential between the hot and cold sides of the engine produ= cing increased expansion differences across the engine.

Question: Do= impeller pumps that we use suck and push equally well? My guess is that th= ey don’t.
If this doesn’t matter would it help with the phys= ical layout to suck the water through rather than push it through?

C= heers

Steve Izett

> On 20 Aug 2020, at 3:30 pm, 1= 2348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:
>
> Gents,
>        &nbs= p;        Looking today how to hook up my electric wate= r pump.  The simplest is to send the water reverse to a standard pump.=   I do understand the hot side and the colder side but with the water = being changes every 1 - 2 seconds, does this really matter?
> Thought= s?
>                  &n= bsp;    Neil.


--
Homepage:  http://ww= w.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html

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