X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=psbzS7B9AiVUV1oHe3Ds2g==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=N411KhVkfQUkBhspAAsA:9 a=1q1CZzq0Mulk96mx:21 a=_sescNLloMM8oIca:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=u2hsSqVucl3aJsL5NEMA:9 a=t3k-H5kTpg6TyOEN:21 a=jbwoTVppXB_onHIQ:21 a=QQQBZhQtjev822g7:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f170.google.com ([209.85.167.170] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 665175 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 12:21:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.170; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f170.google.com with SMTP id o21so2332809oie.12 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:21:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=odmmZTXwzxjT5n75k6Pp4RCDXDnx2MJDnsKBmuxSQfA=; b=MjKHl+hvI0qhqs9NTSbe8a0hwe9x7b76IQ4O7WLDILaPX9AmT6cYzTYk4qBuTrlbxA FRIGRILzxPs+JpoM4L5K9FbX2mJsmvm1nvc1aVwumE8JplnJ8OEYSHz2GxNmBdN+4mOZ upw8sBK8M/uVYiYqIjGXd6yrLC05KfZWhbVUg6NUFf+HEyxtqPey12c1CcbGW4sd2JOL cXhaIFMECjzg82ZYOI3iiQyyhI5LB9TJBjHMad/bxFSfFoAdy6DOIvYeJKVme6AxBgJw 0N9Uu6RLb3AtFzs/1tj6vOh24PDovCj0hU81Juk/fVSraLTWKnCRhpXStLXMeCads7IE 3NMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=odmmZTXwzxjT5n75k6Pp4RCDXDnx2MJDnsKBmuxSQfA=; b=uEuIV2xamZFUfSCTjhoSFuq/Y5u6L1ZKhIGDx7JAU8wkjt1vkniW8Nd6RRVoFhs9He fjzjU0yOTch86R92tHnCxgCgT+UluhbdxBT+cX1Tw4CO8bblwcr6NqjwK0+BJtORZhiS rWA01rc4ryxyCVuNR51n4AgXCv2Xcp41utJH20YFWovEHLp2dJmQBeTI32iXZ5dy7coL VuDsLVAyVw/68yS+yU/fCvCjdizMeqDizA7EtfaebCVvWMC7Jr4T812g6aMb+RUrmlTl y/F+xFvasyAmboqfozkj+XhEUDe14CrTmtuxtsq9EvArl4EP3Peavf0Xq9e4xxFpsCVi EZkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322SSRqFfqxeog87nJkEQ8m0MVKnUXWVSvM+xWY8SoagQfSfaKQ o669SGCX6aH5QeD/Cqt6nBs4Cv0E0SKp4NCCoZajNYZbKc8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJF7LqRvmwkvVbSV2r2dI4Gg1dY1Kiwg8II1OMzAjwiHacKafY2qR5Vqgf4nHMvHxhTwxphkhyTAAtmml7S14= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4ccd:: with SMTP id z196mr2130489oia.86.1597940454233; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:20:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000259ba005ad51814a" --000000000000259ba005ad51814a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, In a perfect world I would have considered something like that. I have no experience with Borg Warner - except that I did buy one on e-bay once. The large A/R and other specs you mention seem about right to me, but you should really dig up a compressor map and plot some points to be sure. The BW I bought was big and I could not find the proper clamps to hold the exhaust onto the turbo. In short, the installation would have taken a lot longer than the modified stock turbo, but it would have been more optimal. Good Luck. Dave Leonard On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:04 AM James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B. > But...anyone out there with experience with the situation can share. I > have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water > cooled ceramic bearing Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to > keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This > should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp > available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the > C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise > will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / ga= s > bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. > Advise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it >> in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to= . I >> couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. >> Thanks james Whitehurst. >> >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Todd, >>> >>> Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my >>> turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight = from >>> the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm w= ith >>> a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. >>> >>> >>> >>> Neil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to >>> change out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed t= he >>> wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That >>> gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist. = Its >>> perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator = and >>> will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. >>> Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. >>> >>> >>> >>> It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the >>> Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. >>> Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. >>> >>> >>> >>> We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machin= e >>> the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to s= ave >>> on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this m= eans >>> I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what I can d= o >>> about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have en= ough >>> spare parts to build another airplane. >>> >>> As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was no= t >>> asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but aga= in >>> this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me h= as >>> made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up= the >>> ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none= . >>> >>> I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart >>> controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But = I >>> may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I >>> receive it. >>> >>> Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently >>> removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to >>> space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I n= ow >>> think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity w= ith >>> some space freed up to do a better install. >>> >>> Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace th= e >>> big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing= it >>> told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engin= e, >>> behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thi= ng >>> to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary >>> alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bi= t of >>> free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably >>> require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... >>> >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave; >>> >>> Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the >>> wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? >>> >>> I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to >>> know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rath= er >>> than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14p= si >>> spring. >>> >>> I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart >>> electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressur= es >>> at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the >>> actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring >>> pressure is. >>> >>> One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my >>> engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9= .4:1 >>> rotors. >>> >>> Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my >>> boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. >>> >>> When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without >>> detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the eng= ine >>> to regularly. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave; >>> >>> I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was >>> looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should h= ave >>> then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. >>> >>> But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm >>> thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you= do, >>> if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go= for >>> the "stage 4". >>> >>> The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room fo= r >>> a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could >>> source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know >>> enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the fini= sh >>> line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of >>> $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying= the >>> $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internatio= nal >>> shipping. >>> >>> So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me ove= r >>> the edge and call him back with my visa#. >>> >>> If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past >>> this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. >>> >>> >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that >>> there is less fans than my beer league games) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Todd, >>> >>> Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. >>> Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t wa= nt the job. >>> Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 >>> cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path= of >>> fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that = too >>> many times before. >>> >>> Thanks, Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Neil; >>> >>> I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said >>> it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe lat= er >>> this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could >>> just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's >>> kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine dow= n to >>> him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. >>> >>> So for you that would make even more sense. >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Dave and all, >>> >>> Finally great advice that I cannot get >>> anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line = goes dead. The oil >>> cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo >>> failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil th= at can fit >>> into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo= -- >>> all 5 gallons of it. >>> >>> Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight >>> both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will = be >>> $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be >>> another $300 at least. >>> >>> >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Dave; >>> >>> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >>> >>> >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >>> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >>> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perha= ps >>> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not g= oing >>> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan t= o >>> achieve it. >>> >>> >>> >>> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b >>> it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short >>> bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turb= o to >>> see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo >>> lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impell= er >>> was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. I= t >>> probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runni= ng >>> full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was >>> almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about = 30" >>> MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >>> >>> >>> >>> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >>> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my >>> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the >>> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can >>> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as y= ou >>> need. >>> >>> >>> >>> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are >>> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to >>> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >>> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >>> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. T= ry >>> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away >>> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You = will >>> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily >>> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >>> aircraft. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Group, >>> >>> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >>> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so a= s to >>> not get into >>> >>> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >>> >>> >>> >>> Kelly troyer >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Dave, >>> >>> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >>> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also hav= e >>> options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the >>> level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about >>> Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or >>> TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. T= hink they >>> have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying= to >>> get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you tal= k to >>> drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi tu= rbos >>> for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. >>> >>> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >>> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much= to >>> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler tha= t >>> may fit. >>> >>> Best, Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >>> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience= is >>> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage f= or >>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it >> in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to= . I >> couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. >> Thanks james Whitehurst. >> >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Todd, >>> >>> Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my >>> turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight = from >>> the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm w= ith >>> a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. >>> >>> >>> >>> Neil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to >>> change out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed t= he >>> wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That >>> gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist. = Its >>> perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator = and >>> will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. >>> Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. >>> >>> >>> >>> It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the >>> Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. >>> Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. >>> >>> >>> >>> We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machin= e >>> the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to s= ave >>> on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this m= eans >>> I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what I can d= o >>> about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have en= ough >>> spare parts to build another airplane. >>> >>> As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was no= t >>> asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but aga= in >>> this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me h= as >>> made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up= the >>> ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none= . >>> >>> I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart >>> controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But = I >>> may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I >>> receive it. >>> >>> Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently >>> removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to >>> space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I n= ow >>> think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity w= ith >>> some space freed up to do a better install. >>> >>> Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace th= e >>> big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing= it >>> told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engin= e, >>> behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thi= ng >>> to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary >>> alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bi= t of >>> free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably >>> require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... >>> >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave; >>> >>> Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the >>> wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? >>> >>> I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to >>> know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rath= er >>> than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14p= si >>> spring. >>> >>> I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart >>> electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressur= es >>> at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the >>> actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring >>> pressure is. >>> >>> One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my >>> engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9= .4:1 >>> rotors. >>> >>> Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my >>> boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. >>> >>> When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without >>> detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the eng= ine >>> to regularly. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave; >>> >>> I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was >>> looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should h= ave >>> then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. >>> >>> But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm >>> thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you= do, >>> if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go= for >>> the "stage 4". >>> >>> The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room fo= r >>> a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could >>> source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know >>> enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the fini= sh >>> line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of >>> $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying= the >>> $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internatio= nal >>> shipping. >>> >>> So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me ove= r >>> the edge and call him back with my visa#. >>> >>> If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past >>> this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. >>> >>> >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that >>> there is less fans than my beer league games) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Todd, >>> >>> Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. >>> Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t wa= nt the job. >>> Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 >>> cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path= of >>> fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that = too >>> many times before. >>> >>> Thanks, Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Neil; >>> >>> I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said >>> it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe lat= er >>> this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could >>> just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's >>> kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine dow= n to >>> him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. >>> >>> So for you that would make even more sense. >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Dave and all, >>> >>> Finally great advice that I cannot get >>> anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line = goes dead. The oil >>> cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo >>> failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil th= at can fit >>> into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo= -- >>> all 5 gallons of it. >>> >>> Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight >>> both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will = be >>> $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be >>> another $300 at least. >>> >>> >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Dave; >>> >>> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >>> >>> >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >>> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >>> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perha= ps >>> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not g= oing >>> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan t= o >>> achieve it. >>> >>> >>> >>> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b >>> it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short >>> bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turb= o to >>> see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo >>> lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impell= er >>> was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. I= t >>> probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runni= ng >>> full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was >>> almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about = 30" >>> MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >>> >>> >>> >>> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >>> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my >>> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the >>> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can >>> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as y= ou >>> need. >>> >>> >>> >>> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are >>> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to >>> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >>> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >>> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. T= ry >>> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away >>> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You = will >>> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily >>> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >>> aircraft. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Group, >>> >>> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >>> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so a= s to >>> not get into >>> >>> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >>> >>> >>> >>> Kelly troyer >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Dave, >>> >>> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >>> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> James, >>> >>> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also hav= e >>> options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the >>> level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about >>> Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or >>> TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> >>> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. T= hink they >>> have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying= to >>> get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you tal= k to >>> drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi tu= rbos >>> for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. >>> >>> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >>> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much= to >>> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler tha= t >>> may fit. >>> >>> Best, Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >>> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience= is >>> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage f= or >>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --000000000000259ba005ad51814a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
James,

In a perfect world I = would have considered something like that.=C2=A0 I have no experience with = Borg Warner - except that I did buy one on e-bay once.=C2=A0 The large A/R = and other specs you mention seem about right to me, but you should really d= ig up a compressor map and plot some points to be sure.=C2=A0 The BW I boug= ht was big and I could not find the proper clamps to hold the exhaust onto = the turbo.=C2=A0 In short, the installation would have taken a lot longer t= han the modified stock turbo, but it would have been more optimal.=C2=A0 Go= od Luck.

Dave Leonard

On Thu, Aug 20, 202= 0 at 6:04 AM James Whitehurst flybo= yusvi@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B.But...anyone out there with experience with the situation can= share. I have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil an= d water cooled ceramic bearing=C2=A0 Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1= .45 AR to keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. = This should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp a= vailable at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the C/= S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise wil= l be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / gas bil= l. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. Advise= or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:1= 9 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:
Dave= L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it in the= near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to. I could= n't=C2=A0 access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. T= hanks james Whitehurst.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail= .com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

= Todd,

<= span lang=3D"EN-AU">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally located a turbo shop that can u= pgrade my turbo.=C2=A0 Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0= Saving freight from the US if successful.=C2=A0 Called precision turbos.= =C2=A0 Seem to be a US firm with a local branch.=C2=A0 Hopefully I can get = what I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AMTo: Rotary motors in aircraft <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo= s for 13b's in aircraft

<= u>=C2=A0

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I do= nt think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to change out the actuato= r.=C2=A0 I have 2 turbos from BNR.=C2=A0 In one I removed the wastegate fla= pper all together and just left the hole wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me abo= ut 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its p= erfect for my everyday flying.=C2=A0 The other one uses the stock actuator = and will give me 45" at 10k density altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my race = turbo. =C2=A0 Nothing like raging around at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the gas= bill either.=C2=A0

<= /u>=C2=A0

It will be easy enoug= h to use your TurboSmart.=C2=A0 Bummer they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.=C2= =A0 Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull the= y still port the wastegate a little.

=C2=A0

We= definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Wed, = Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com<= /a> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

I ended up ordering = the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine the exhaust housing to= make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to save on shipping down there= . I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this means I get to keep my = old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what=C2=A0I can do about sour= cing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have enough spare= parts to build another airplane.

=C2=A0 As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to= think I was not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry = about it, but again this list has proven its value as random info not even = directed at me has made me aware that at any given time my poor little turb= o could give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down wher= e there are none.

=C2=A0= I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart contro= ller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I may just= replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I receive=C2= =A0it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now = I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently remove= d it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to space= constraints=C2=A0and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I n= ow think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity wi= th some space freed up to do a better install.

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last year I bought a little bitty tiny = lithium battery to replace the big old lead acid battery. As it has some sm= arts on it, the first thing it told me was that it didn't like being ov= er on the hot side of the engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small= and light, it was an easy thing to move over to the other side of the engi= ne, right beside my primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount= and now have quite a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, = however=C2=A0it will probably require some modification. This is all yet to= be determined....


Todd B= artrim

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim = bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

= =C2=A0 Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the was= tegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring?

=

=C2=A0 I told him I would rather use my o= wn wastegate, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about when = I told him it was a piston type rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting = that I'd want to use his with a 14psi spring.

I also want the lowest possible spring pressure a= s I have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller which can give higher pre= -programed pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressur= e signal to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than wha= t the spring pressure is.

=C2=A0 One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my e= ngine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 = rotors.

=C2=A0 Fot that = reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to 6ps= i, which is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw abo= ut 16 psi without detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to s= ubject the engine to regularly.

=C2=A0

Thanks, T= odd

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@= gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:

Hi Dave;<= u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I talked with BNR= today and I'm not sure he really got what I was looking for as he star= ted by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should have then said pr= obably a "stage 1" would be good for me.

<= div>

=C2=A0 But other than that I did like what he ha= s to offer. However I'm thinking that even though I don't feel that= I have the demands that you do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm g= oing all the way and might as well go for the "stage 4".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The "stage 4&q= uot; involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for a larger turbi= ne wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could source those ot= her items and do this myself. But as I don't even know enough about my = starting point it's not very realistic to find the finish line without = a significant investment in time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have= more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core= charge is good value when you have to deal with international shipping.=C2= =A0

So I guess I just ne= ed someone to give me a little shove to push me over the edge and call him = back with my visa#.

=C2= =A0 If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we&#= 39;d be past this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0Todd

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(The only thing stranger than watching h= ockey in August, is that there is less fans than my beer league games)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On = Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= u>

T= odd,

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking.=C2=A0 H= ave tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want th= e job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way.=C2=A0 = Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, and see what eventuates as w= ay down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start ag= ain.=C2=A0 Done that too many times before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

= From: Rotary motors in aircraft <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 20= 20 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;<= /u>

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on t= he phone about my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnaround= time on the turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested that f= or a $100 dollar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it for= me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it woul= d cost me that much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying ship= ping one way.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0So for you that would make even more sense.=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348un= g@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally great advice that I cann= ot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone li= ne goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well for I have personal ex= perience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not beli= eve the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!=C2=A0 That took more ti= me to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Wil= l see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a turbo , as the freight bot= h ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy with the mod cost which wi= ll be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo.=C2=A0 Freight I am guess= ing will be another $300 at least.

=C2=A0

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b&#= 39;s in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oi= l?

=C2=A0<= /p>

Todd Bartrim<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Ke= lly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.=

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as kee= ping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions you a= re going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your po= st, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in m= ind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unles= s you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2= =A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car = - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.= =C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a = little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Loo= king=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 I= t's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted t= hat long because most of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The t= urbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and d= ecided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MA= P at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.=

=C2=A0

My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is t= o install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now h= ave one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemor= rhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will= run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can = continue to fly n/a as long as you need.

=C2=A0

= Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that ar= e realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want= to fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and p= aste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on t= he internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet= .=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while stay= ing away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k = if possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a= good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock = T3 does not belong in an aircraft.

=C2=A0

Best,<= u>

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

=

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I hav= e no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I settled on a &q= uot;Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not = get into=C2=A0

any overs= peed problems..........FWIW

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3= , 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ju= st how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I= will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off wi= th the fairys having this expectation?

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b&= #39;s in aircraft

=C2=A0

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.= =C2=A0 They also have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0ht= tp://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0= Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that= you can find in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top= out around 350hp at sea level.

=C2=A0

Attached = is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameter= s in selecting a turbo.

= =C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0 2 flying that I = know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they ha= ve the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world trying = to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you= talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Boug= ht 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will n= eed bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Africa for frei= ght only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as = usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an = intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b'= s in aircraft

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recomme= ndations for a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp = range. Reasons or experience is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs b= ut are different from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are ne= aring the decision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst=


=C2=A0


On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi= @gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /div>
Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet.= I will try to learn enough to use it in the near future... I tried to look= up the discussions you referred to. I couldn't=C2=A0 access the info? = Any help or guidance would be appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst.
On Thu, = Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my turbo.=C2=A0 Have se= nt it to them for inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0 Saving freight from the US if= successful.=C2=A0 Called precision turbos.=C2=A0 Seem to be a US firm with= a local branch.=C2=A0 Hopefully I can get what I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <<= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nore= ferrer noreferrer noreferrer">flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Se= nt: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= br>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft<= u>

=C2=A0

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I dont think you will miss the AMU. It = is easy enough to change out the actuator.=C2=A0 I have 2 turbos from BNR.= =C2=A0 In one I removed the wastegate flapper all together and just left th= e hole wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and p= rotects me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its perfect for my everyday flying.=C2= =A0 The other one uses the stock actuator and will give me 45" at 10k = density altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my race turbo. =C2=A0 Nothing like raging= around at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the gas bill either.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart.=C2=A0 B= ummer they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.=C2=A0 Seemed like a lot of work for= them to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull they still port the wastegate a litt= le.

=C2=A0=

We definitely have to get together fo= r a hockey game sometime.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard=

=C2=A0

<= div>

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim= bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they = no longer machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 co= re charge to save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him tha= n FedEx. So this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I&= #39;ll see what=C2=A0I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade= . Pretty soon I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane.

=C2=A0 As they say "ignora= nce is bliss", and I was content to think I was not asking much of my = turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but again this list has p= roven its value as random info not even directed at me has made me aware th= at at any given time my poor little turbo could give up the ghost and leave= me looking for a place to put down where there are none.

=

=C2=A0 I asked him to put a 7psi spring i= n the actuator, as the TurboSmart controller will allow me to achieve more = at the touch of a button. But I may just replace it with my own actuator an= yways. I'll decide when I receive=C2=A0it.

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm going to rethink my interco= oler installation. I had recently removed it as I didn't feel it was a = very effective installation due to space constraints=C2=A0and didn't th= ink it was really doing much for me. I now think it was doing more than I t= hought, but I now have an opportunity with some space freed up to do a bett= er install.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the bi= g old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing it to= ld me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine,= behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thing = to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary alter= nator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit of free= space in which to mount the intercooler, however=C2=A0it will probably req= uire some modification. This is all yet to be determined....<= /p>


Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On= Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmai= l.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Fot that reason I've always been conser= vative and tried to limit my boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pres= sure.

=C2= =A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he= really got what I was looking for as he started by saying that a "sta= ge 3" is what I should have then said probably a "stage 1" w= ould be good for me.

=C2= =A0 But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm th= inking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you d= o, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as = well go for the "stage 4".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The "stage 4" involves machining the = exhaust housing to make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others do= n't. So I wonder if I could source those other items and do this myself= . But as I don't even know enough about my starting point it's not = very realistic to find the finish line without a significant investment in = time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I= 9;m also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when y= ou have to deal with international shipping.=C2=A0

<= div>

So I guess I just need someone to give me a litt= le shove to push me over the edge and call him back with my visa#.

=C2=A0 If he had an "add to= cart" button on his website I think we'd be past this point after= a few beers watching playoff hockey.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0Todd

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0(The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that the= re is less fans than my beer league games)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Todd,

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for tha= t as was exactly what I was thinking.=C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ= and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to= the US and back can be $300 each way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Wi= ll contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path of fitting th= e stock turbo, really do not want to start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many = times before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

<= span lang=3D"EN-AU">=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in= aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wa= nts. He said it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said = maybe later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, = he could just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. T= hat's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mi= ne down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So for you that would make = even more sense.=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 4, 20= 20 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= div>

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Finally great advice that I cannot get anywhere else as mention = =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut = off is great as well for I have personal experience with =C2=A0a turbo fail= ure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that can f= it into an exhaust!=C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replacing the t= urbo-- all 5 gallons of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source here in = OZ =C2=A0as to a turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murder= ous.=C2=A0 Happy with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 St= ill a cheap turbo.=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $300 at leas= t.

=C2= =A0

Nei= l.

=C2= =A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: T= uesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 What d= id you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 202= 0 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even = mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.

=C2=A0

Mark, i= ts not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper oper= ating environment for the conditions you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You = mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps you = dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you ar= e not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and = a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The sto= ck hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran= with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts.=C2= =A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to= see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo= lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the= impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surprising it last= ed 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted that long because most of the ti= me I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my first long = cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little= .=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It l= asted about 30 min doing that.

=C2=A0

My advice,= if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on t= he oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my installation.=C2= =A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into the exha= ust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you can= get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as= you need.

=C2=A0=

Play around with that spreadsh= eet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for how much boost= at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turbo to = fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto t= he spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the internet but most of the re= levant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo = in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the 'surge&#= 39; line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You will fi= nd that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily avail= able.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an aircr= aft.

=C2=A0

Best,

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Mon,= Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> w= rote:

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but= when I purchased my turbo I settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 w= ith a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not get into=C2=A0

any overspeed problems..........FWIW<= /u>

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think= you got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP= from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expecta= tion?

N= eil.

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft=

=C2=A0

James,

I had my stoc= k housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have options fo= r the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0= Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I= had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.= =C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level= .

=C2=A0

Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet t= hat you can use to evaluate various parameters in selecting a turbo.=

=C2=A0

=

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

= On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> w= rote:

James= ,

=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 = Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi t= urbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 tu= rbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2= =A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 = and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There= was an offer of one in south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bar= gain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much to go that I have n= ot factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0= Neil.

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand an= d size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience i= s appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from aircraft= ... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for t= urbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst


=C2=A0=

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