X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFNU8TuZLTvgd6dDXVyjSw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=mPpAlzoyAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=7yAwSjJGHfO3yLh_NEgA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-9v_JbDb-ZoA:10 a=hOeugfDNugLPnndKC-oA:9 a=4kjL5Z-PzrMHUmWX:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=c8bjAVVP6yRcgDy_Aagi:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oo1-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 603626 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 12:01:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-oo1-f52.google.com with SMTP id k4so3713265ooa.9 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:01:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ioHbqiioz/KeADYdhcjqtBJSTdVC2d13HubodhvlXts=; b=QIEp2tzMZi+Y3+iszburxIlXCxyDnH6haIlD/0QXwG1rt9GLzcXI72JQZkc+3Pteob 9ChHZ+Uef2xL28gNbN7D87MnX/mtrqXnJonQG/mtqq4WUr/Cb4aGa7CX8HqkzaNITuBc 09oIuIEs9RJplbXLPE4IjhI6ODGCJmjwvsMAB2oemvHMRm/6aeTXr+yQFgWLRPiV2weK 9CaG3+mk4eH55kSRY5Nk+PsJQSXJT6LnWitsx5OVixTcT+POh5HhHUuC46tQiVrV7k+K 2et/D4NOx+YP2Kdw9vLWSnSZiNYeYUW6BNbkYlwCrmhum2UdZhWNDL8pWxK5ZT1rvRg0 vA2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ioHbqiioz/KeADYdhcjqtBJSTdVC2d13HubodhvlXts=; b=ZhiPO60T8EzGMZAHMemc2R0rqsQ3J6PF5GO99C35SGjbNNgGkldjB0GV64tm1dRMzq a66sWlidVmwi+ynAWaCTfLp38Y1vkV0x+dliV+QM87+vv3zwJ4WtQWAynol4QYhANgk5 lnaSpfrQ3o2umbx/rI8P+xW31ZqIzETyXcyVG4FfRtdGmS+Ige+jD5Sz2E++WIhWn9qD 14btFWmURzNDCJbzJj3TLyNF9ZzwLLcaKGARcMX11VDEkt09g+K8ILFYI+hsTyJwZiGd GLvSVZKojnQfEKltYXZ+Si8rj9Rf1IhNUGxU7zKRXsegkZoxbBtbQMCU3kawz/+bx90n 2b6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532d9Ilzu8ffYaMyltv6rYOFGtW2JkZrnMdTzG26wAidgh1ip70s JZYceM29U9ijDH58hQmRMvmkqOzWY1SHXet7mSbmOg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwf4VSDO/XmfFbefonLADegpvyr9g4OolT01X775lPXZCFMO67RHvVwqIEPZPqJaNwSmzs9VBPHKtuta3HySE0= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:b90e:: with SMTP id x14mr19416241ooo.31.1596556877696; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:01:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f12ed05ac0f5d06" --0000000000008f12ed05ac0f5d06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't see why not. Though not much advantage over 12V that I can think of. On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:57 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Any reason a stainless (or even brass) ball valve (with a pull-cable to > activate) wouldn't work? > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 10:37 AM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> I did a google search. there was a company in FL that made valves to >> spec. I got a normally open, 12v, electric valve with oil tolerant >> innards and NPT fittings. cost about $120 at the time. Cant remember t= he >> name of the company.... >> >> Here it is: >> http://www.jeffersonvalves.com/inicio.asp?sec=3Di&lang=3Dleng >> They are not really set up for the small guy, but they were nice enough >> to me. Special order, took a couple of weeks. >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:42 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave; >>> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >>>> >>>> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >>>> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >>>> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perh= aps >>>> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not = going >>>> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan = to >>>> achieve it. >>>> >>>> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b >>>> it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short >>>> bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock tur= bo to >>>> see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo >>>> lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impel= ler >>>> was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. = It >>>> probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runn= ing >>>> full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was >>>> almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about= 30" >>>> MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >>>> >>>> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >>>> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in m= y >>>> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into th= e >>>> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you= can >>>> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as = you >>>> need. >>>> >>>> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that ar= e >>>> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want t= o >>>> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >>>> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >>>> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. = Try >>>> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying awa= y >>>> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You= will >>>> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readil= y >>>> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >>>> aircraft. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Group, >>>>> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >>>>> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so= as to >>>>> not get into >>>>> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >>>>> >>>>> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >>>>> >>>>> Kelly troyer >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dave, >>>>>> >>>>>> * Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy >>>>>> the upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the sto= ck >>>>>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Neil.* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> > Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AMT= o: >>>>>> Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> >Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13= b's in >>>>>> aircraft* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *James,* >>>>>> >>>>>> *I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also >>>>>> have options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ >>>>>> Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade. Ma= kes a >>>>>> nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you ca= n find >>>>>> in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around = 350hp >>>>>> at sea level.* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>>>>> various parameters in selecting a turbo.* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dave Leonard* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com >>>>>> <12348ung@gmail.com> >>>>> > wrote:* >>>>>> >>>>>> *James,* >>>>>> >>>>>> * 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard= . Think >>>>>> they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the worl= d >>>>>> trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exi= st if >>>>>> you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Boug= ht 2 >>>>>> hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will= need >>>>>> bearings.* >>>>>> >>>>>> * There was an offer of one in south Africa for >>>>>> freight only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as= usual >>>>>> much to go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an inte= rcooler >>>>>> that may fit.* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Best, Neil.* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> > Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM= To: >>>>>> Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> >Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's = in >>>>>> aircraft* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand >>>>>> and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or exp= erience >>>>>> is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>>>>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stag= e for >>>>>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --0000000000008f12ed05ac0f5d06 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't see why not.=C2=A0 Though not much advantage o= ver 12V that I can think of.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:57 AM Charlie Engl= and ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Any reason a stainless (or even brass) = ball valve (with a pull-cable to activate) wouldn't work?
On Tue, = Aug 4, 2020 at 10:37 AM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> w= rote:
I di= d a google search.=C2=A0 there was a company in FL that made valves to spec= .=C2=A0=C2=A0 I got a normally open, 12v, electric valve with oil tolerant = innards and NPT fittings.=C2=A0 cost about $120 at the time.=C2=A0 Cant rem= ember the name of the company....

Here it is:
http://www.jeffersonvalves.com/inicio.asp?sec=3D= i&lang=3Dleng
They are not really set up for the small guy, but = they were nice enough to me.=C2=A0 Special order, took a couple of weeks.= =C2=A0

Dave Leonard
=

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:42 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:
Hi Dave;=C2=A0 What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

=
Todd Bartrim
<= /div>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
Kell= y, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.
=
Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the tu= rbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to= be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it = seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 = Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have = a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd g= en 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short= bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the sto= ck turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a little over 200hp an= d the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its tur= bo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surpris= ing it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted that long because mos= t of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my = first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and decided to let it loo= se a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.= =C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

My advic= e, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on= the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my installation.= =C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into the e= xhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long= as you need.

Play around with that spreadsheet I = sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for how much boost at wh= at altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turbo to fit th= ose parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the spr= eadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the internet but most of the relevant= =C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its= center island of efficiency while staying away from the 'surge' li= ne.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You will find tha= t Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily available.= =C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an aircraft.<= /div>

Best,
Dave Leonard

On Mon, Aug 3, 2= 020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-= left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-le= ft-style:solid">
Group,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I= have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I settled on = a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to = not get into=C2=A0
any overspeed problems..........FWIW


Kell= y troyer

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt; wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much ext= ra Hp do you think you got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy = with 250 to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys h= aving this expectation?

Neil.

=C2=A0<= /u>

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: M= onday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <<= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b&= #39;s in aircraft

=C2=A0

<= u>James,

= I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They a= lso have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the l= evel 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion = about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO= 4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level.<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

Attached is a turbo e= xcel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameters in selecti= ng a turbo.

= =C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

James,

<= span lang=3D"EN-AU">=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bar= trim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turb= o.=C2=A0 Just been around the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo= for my renesis which does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0= Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and= one looks set to go while the other will need bearings.

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight only.=C2= =A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much t= o go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an intercooler = that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for = a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reason= s or experience is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are differ= ent from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the dec= ision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst<= /p>

<= u>

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