X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=RClJrXfRXYIYAm0djqXyWw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=soPhQAMjU-oA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=L9eLrlQMQX6emp7v3IEA:9 a=RL287hdClnK7LSqA:21 a=mQonHv3dWjVm7_fL:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=vyHvONtGcm_UaQsu-usA:9 a=UziLYIE7F5xqJeU1:21 a=v5T2mkNqGsh_1VEg:21 a=2QgxTp9tQqpyOsb-:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic312-21.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.128.83] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 532967 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 19:30:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.128.83; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1594855803; 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Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:30:03 +0000 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:29:59 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <2089979778.1662072.1594855799217@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1662071_1245002634.1594855799207" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16271 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_252) Content-Length: 72166 ------=_Part_1662071_1245002634.1594855799207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My dream engine..................notice that there is a stud hole not used = by this front cover.=C2=A0 And high HP engines are studded to prevent twist= .=C2=A0 A bed mount aluminum plate would reduce the need for studding. ..LE= H In a message dated 7/15/2020 6:40:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: Group,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Link to a little "EYE Candy"............Expensive 20B al= l alloy buildup.......... =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DVvh04D7hiZo&feature=3D= emb_rel_end Kelly Troyer On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 4:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: =C2=A0 Marc,=C2=A0 =C2=A0The footprint (gasket ) of the Renesis Rx8 front c= over is almost the same as the early 13B/20B front covers...........Their a= re some bolt spacing differences that are easily programed into the "Aircraft Specific Front housing" that we are trying to produce........= ....Mark Stietle (formally of this group but since passed) adapted the RX8 = Renesis water pump=C2=A0to his 20B powered Lancair by cutting the water pump=C2=A0part of a Renesis from a front cover= and bolted it to his 20B.........One mounting bolt was not=C2=A0 able to b= e used.......He retained the original 20B front cover.........I do not know= how many flight hours Mark put on this water pump conversion but it was st= ill flying up until his passing.........If you are just wanting to put the = complete Renesis front cover on a stock 13BREW or 20B front iron housing I am not sure if there would be bo= lt bosses in the proper place......With an alloy front housing bolt bosses = can be located wherever=C2=A0we want them..=C2=A0 Renesis front covers are = readily available as are their water pumps.......If you look into the Rotar= y Racing Crowd you will find turbo versions of the Renesis......If anything= the Renesis water pump has a bigger heat load because of the exhaust exiting into the side ho= usings...........IMHO.........Hope this answers some of your questions.....= ..... Best,Kelly Troyer On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 2:39 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote: Kelly, I=E2=80=99m still in, but need to make sure what needs to change from a 13B= rewtt/20B to mate up to a RX8 2004-2008 cover. And are they and their water= pump still (more or less) available? Not sure the RX8 pump can handle the = turbo variants=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.might = need options. M =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2020 6:48 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazd= a Front Side Housing-pics =C2=A0 Marc & Ernest, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ernest=C2=A0first.............Nothing available to buy at thi= s time and no guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in= CAD design stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the problem= ..........There are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates (For = an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front sid= eplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the four (4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the Lyc= oming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as used= by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental) that normally=C2=A0use any of the several variations O/IO 540 engines......= ....As stated previously this mount ring=C2=A0is available (Just the Ring) = from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already purchased=C2= =A0 two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines = used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans to prod= uce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The "Mount Ears" of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump=C2=A0= so the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are=C2=A0removable and replace= able.........=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marc the bolt patterns for all the various front covers are v= irtually the same with some slight variations=C2=A0 in bolt spacing and the= number of bolts..........We=C2=A0 are currently=C2=A0planning on the use o= f the RX8 Renesis 2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit within t= he confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator=C2=A0boss= which stands on top of the water pump=C2=A0housing..............This will necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked out= at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be used a= lso (We Think) but it is more complicated=C2=A0and incorporates the=C2=A0 oil=C2=A0filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better option.....= ......Also the current plan is to take oil directly=C2=A0from the oil pump = (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front housing (Pl= ugged=C2=A0on the=C2=A0 stock side housing) directly to the oil filter=C2=A0and oil cooler instead = of out the front=C2=A0cover (A weak point particularly=C2=A0in early covers= at high oil pressure).............As far as front covers it would=C2=A0be = simple to order bolt=C2=A0 spacing for what ever=C2=A0cover you want (But) Here is the problem........= .......The early water pump=C2=A0alloy housings and cast iron water pumps a= re not only heavy but they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we a= re not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring ........That is t= he reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requires=C2=A0 the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We do not anticipate=C2= =A0producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything=C2=A0we prod= uce=C2=A0 will be only for the 13B/20B engines...........All good questions= and we=C2=A0 are trying to come up with best solutions for several=C2=A0 possible proble= ms......... =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk)= =C2=A0 O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolte= d to it........This was done so we could accurately place the Eccentric shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 cranks= haft centerline within the confines of the mount ring and judge how everyth= ing will fit...........=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best, Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote: Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the what?= ? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft trigger = ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in the AT vers= ion), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, but I bet t= here are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as well as the= trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements. I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit with s= ome sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe others. I=E2= =80=99ve seen them offered before. =C2=A0 Marc =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazd= a Front Side Housing-pics =C2=A0 Charlie, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mis= tral Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is= something that could=C2=A0be doable...........Just for your information=C2=A0my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the "= Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front housin= g in front=C2=A0of me but I believe it is a little thicker than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This extr= a thickness would=C2=A0probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , s= pacers , and pulley stack necessary........ =C2=A0 Something to investigate !!.......... Best Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: Charlie, =C2=A0Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is ho= w well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through t= hem and could stainless or inconel exhaust inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) ?......= .......All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my knowledge= are for the 13B/20B engines..........I suppose=C2=A0it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto perfor= mance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Foo= d for thought though......... =C2=A0 Best=C2=A0 Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: Hi Kelly, I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be i= n a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the Re= nesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style acces= sory housing, but made for the Renesis. Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is we= lcome. Charlie On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: =C2=A0 Todd,=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unl= ess I hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all furt= her discussion on the group forum...............As a further note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will prob= ably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the "Mistral"= mount/housing that I have......I have=C2=A0 a 20B but it would be seriously=C2=A0too much power and weight for my "Dyke= Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... =C2=A0 Thanks Again, Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote: Hi Kelly;=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a pract= ical engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise = considering alternative engines. =C2=A0 While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't ra= ised my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another proje= ct where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go engine= mount. =C2=A0 =C2=A0However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussi= on of this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that = I may not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all = as we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion pert= aining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and encoura= ging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. =C2=A0 The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, so= metimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what the = hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But more ofte= n than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. =C2=A0 Todd C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo =C2=A0 On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, wrote: Flyrotary=C2=A0Forum Members,=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate=C2=A0the respo= nse of all members to my posts regarding the possible production of an "Air= craft Specific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate" that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" en= gine mount ring.............. There are several aftermarket companies curre= ntly producing all the alloy side housings that are necessary=C2=A0for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto= Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is a= front side housing specifically designed with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft that= normally be powered by any of several=C2=A0versions of the Lycoming O/IO 5= 40 engine..........The current plan is to use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition=C2=A0picku= p and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many o= ther aircraft=C2=A0that normally would use=C2=A0 the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring= (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW engine (= all alloy if wanted)........=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is a project that I have a p= ersonal interest in and at this time cannot report a time schedule for its = completion.........I have committed for the first "Beta" housing for testin= g=C2=A0 and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is probab= ly tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time being any= of the group that have an interest in this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E=C2=A0mail= =C2=A0me directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... =C2=A0 Best Regards Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Guys,=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B ba= sed rotary engine......... =C2=A0 https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Lynn,=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistral= l" took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front i= ron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I think)= =C2=A0 to bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp got up to about 15= 0 degrees F........I have this plate also.......... =C2=A0 Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Marc & Lynn=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like= what my 13BREW will look like=C2=A0except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy= center & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn t= his is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and fro= nt cover into one unit that bolts to the=C2=A0 front iron and incorporates the water pump=C2=A0and mount for the alternato= r plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provis= ions for a drive for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.........I did not get the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my housing.= ........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal=C2=A0Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-= 360 mount ring......... =C2=A0 Thanks, Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a ca= st oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black pla= te).............LEH =C2=A0 In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes:=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest back= when. Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard= drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they c= ame from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named= =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture = limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn= =E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB= limit here? Marc =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing =C2=A0 Le Roux, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of qu= estions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" = alloy side housing / accessory drive that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated the= "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount.....= .....This is what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to come= up with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the ac= cessory=C2=A0drives and using the stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric = airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... Thanks Again, Kelly troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail= .com wrote: Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April = 2011 =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTRAL= _%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/= MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mounting= here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mounting Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 =C2=A0 https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Le Roux =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: =C2=A0 Dave & Charlie, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0the = bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that = used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I= know this as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I ha= ve all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13= BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C) side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mou= nts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a= cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mis= tral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount point= s at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine...= ......At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine development the engines they= sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their parts were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)......= ......The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0to be certifia= ble so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail..........So t= hey made engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Maz= da" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for aircraft use..= ........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were not adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps wi= ll enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... =C2=A0 Best, Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: Charlie and Mark, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2=A0side housing= is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount poi= nts that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda ec= centric shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline an= d make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 degre= e "Dyna1" mount system............. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using= the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the n= eed for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump t= o further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the O/I= O 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 l= bs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much light= er..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy housi= ngs for other than the front accessory housing and I have never heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their eng= ines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven one w= ay or another in actual use..........IMHO Best Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote: Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b design= s? M Sent from my iPad =C2=A0 On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com wrote: =C2=A0 Kelly, The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked = out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold si= de. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to eli= minate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and move a= round on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recommende= d with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do it wit= hout a stud kit. You will have better results=C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV Bill Jepson =C2=A0 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2=A0capabi= lity to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Hou= sing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0would allow the= se engines to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used = by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engin= e..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this produ= ct if and when it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested thi= s side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable= of truly amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The= 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycom= ing O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine........... The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mp= h speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand gre= nades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling 1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B b= oosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when i= t may be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 ------=_Part_1662071_1245002634.1594855799207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My dream engine..................notice that there is= a stud hole not used by this front cover.  And high HP engines are st= udded to prevent twist.  A bed mount aluminum plate would reduce the n= eed for studding. ..LEH

In a message dated 7/15/2020 6:40:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes:

Group,
   Link to a little "EYE Candy"............Expensive 20B all= alloy buildup..........


Kelly Troyer

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at = 4:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
  Marc,
   The footprint (gasket ) of the Renesis Rx8 front cover is= almost the same as the early 13B/20B front covers...........Their are some= bolt spacing differences that are easily programed into
the "Aircraft Specific Front housing" that we are trying to produce...= .........Mark Stietle (formally of this group but since passed) adapted the= RX8 Renesis water pump to his 20B powered
Lancair by cutting the water pump part of a Renesis from a front = cover and bolted it to his 20B.........One mounting bolt was not  able= to be used.......He retained the original 20B front cover.........
I do not know how many flight hours Mark put on this water pump conver= sion but it was still flying up until his passing.........If you are just w= anting to put the complete Renesis front cover on
a stock 13BREW or 20B front iron housing I am not sure if there would = be bolt bosses in the proper place......With an alloy front housing bolt bo= sses can be located wherever we want them..
  Renesis front covers are readily available as are their water p= umps.......If you look into the Rotary Racing Crowd you will find turbo ver= sions of the Renesis......If anything the Renesis water
pump has a bigger heat load because of the exhaust exiting into the si= de housings...........IMHO.........Hope this answers some of your questions= ..........

Best,
Kelly Troyer

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at = 2:39 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <

Kelly,

I’m still in, but need to make sure what needs to change fr= om a 13Brewtt/20B to mate up to a RX8 2004-2008 cover. And are they and the= ir water pump still (more or less) available? Not sure the RX8 pump can han= dle the turbo variants……………….migh= t need options.

M

 

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2020 6:48 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW:= [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics=

 

Marc & Ernest,

    Ernest first........= .....Nothing available to buy at this time and no guarantee there will ever= be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design stage...........The plate f= or a stock engine is not the problem..........There

are several companies already producing= alloy replacement side plates (For an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we = are try to do is produce a front sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) t= hat incorporates the four

(4) mounting points that will allow the= engine to be a "Bolt up" to the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 deg= ree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft = (Experimental)

that normally use any of the sever= al variations O/IO 540 engines..........As stated previously this mount rin= g is available (Just the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00= .........I have already purchased 

two of these...........Let it be known = that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount......= ..We currently have no plans to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2= " mount........The

"Mount Ears" of The O-= 540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump so the two different t= ypes (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are removable and replaceable......... = ;

 

    Marc the bolt patterns fo= r all the various front covers are virtually the same with some slight vari= ations  in bolt spacing and the number of bolts..........We  are = currently planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis

2004-2008 front cover and water pump an= d it looks like it will fit within the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring = by removing the alternator boss which stands on top of the water pump&= nbsp;housing..............This will

necessitate relocating the alternator..= ........This has not been worked out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2= 009-2011 front cover could be used also (We Think) but it is more complicat= ed and incorporates the 

oil filter and we think a larger r= emote filter is a better option...........Also the current plan is to take = oil directly from the oil pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley = on the side of the front housing (Plugged on the 

stock side housing) directly to the oil= filter and oil cooler instead of out the front cover (A weak poi= nt particularly in early covers at high oil pressure).............As f= ar as front covers it would be simple to order bolt 

spacing for what ever cover you wa= nt (But) Here is the problem...............The early water= pump alloy housings and cast iron water pumps are not only heavy but = they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO 540

mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1= 991 13B/20B ignition is planned we are not sure at this time if it would cl= ear the mount ring ........That is the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis fr= ont cover (which requires 

the use of a crankshaft trigger ignitio= n).........We do not anticipate producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renes= is engine so anything we produce  will be only for the 13B/20B en= gines...........All good questions and we 

are trying to come up with best solutio= ns for several  possible problems.........

 

  Just as a note of interest I hav= e purchased a non airworthy (Junk)  O-540 crankcase and currently have= the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to it........This was done so we could = accurately place the Eccentric

shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the = exact same place of the O-540 crankshaft centerline within the confines of = the mount ring and judge how everything will fit...........   &nb= sp;

 

Best,

Kelly Troyer       =

 

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wi= ese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:

Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit= the what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaf= t trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in t= he AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, b= ut I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as w= ell as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements.

I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, ab= eit with some sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe othe= rs. I’ve seen them offered before.

 

Marc

 

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: = [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics<= /u>

 

Charlie,

    After rereading your post= I missed your point of using a "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to the Renes= is iron plate............Now that is something that could be doable...= ........Just for your

information my "Mistral" bolt on "= Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the "Renesis" front iron housing..........I = do not have a "Renesis" front housing in front of me but I believe it = is a little thicker

than a 13B/20B front housing because of= the exhaust port..........This extra thickness would probably make mo= difications to the oil pump gear , spacers , and pulley stack necessary....= ....

  Something to investigate !!.....= .....

Best

Kelly Troyer  <= /p>

 

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly = Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie,

 Interesting point.........First q= uestion off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates = tolerate exhaust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exha= ust

inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in the= m (cost being a factor also) ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side p= lates being produced to my knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I=

suppose it could be done but as of= now all the aftermarket auto performance people using alloy side plates us= e the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thought though.........=

 

Best 

Kelly Troyer  <= /p>

 

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie= England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Kelly,

I hate to muddy the wa= ters, but I wonder how much interest there would be in a Renesis plate vs t= he 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the Renesis, for various rea= sons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but made= for the Renesis.

Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd sai= d, any and all info is welcome.

Charlie

On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM,= Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:

  Todd,

    Thanks for the comment an= d it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise from a majority of= the group I will then keep all further discussion on the group forum......= .........As a further

note if and when I acquire the mount/ba= ckplate under discussion I will probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that = I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have&= nbsp;

a 20B but it would be seriously to= o much power and weight for my "Dyke Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy = housings..........

 

Thanks Again,

Kelly Troyer

 

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Ba= rtrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

Hi Kelly;

   This mount idea is an exce= llent idea worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a major roadblock = to many builders that are otherwise considering alternative engines.=

  While I'm not currently in the m= arket for one myself, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "count me in", but = the future could bring another project where I would be happy to have that = availability of a ready to go engine mount.

   However I'd like to encour= age you to keep all further discussion of this topic online. I'd much rathe= r simply delete a conversation that I may not have an interest in, than see= the list with no discussion at all as we've seen all too often in the rece= nt past. Any and all discussion pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps= to keep the list active and encouraging to other builders, as well as addi= ng ideas to the archives.

  The archives have been a gold mi= ne of info for me over the years, sometimes even reading my own comments to= give me an insight as to "what the hell was I thinking" when I came up wit= h some failed concept. But more often than not as a source of info for more= successful concepts.

 

Todd

C-FSTB

RV9 13Bturbo

 

On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Tro= yer keltro@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Flyrotary Forum Members, &nbs= p;

          &nbs= p;  I appreciate the response of all members to my posts regardin= g the possible production of an "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B co= mbination Engine mount/Side plate"

that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" engine mount ring.............. <= /strong>There are several aftermarket companies currently producing all the= alloy

side housings that are necessary f= or an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto Racing crowd.........What we are tryin= g to do is produce at this time is a front side housing specifically design= ed

with the proper mount points to be esse= ntially bolt in to any aircraft that normally be powered by any of several&= nbsp;versions of the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........The current plan is = to

use the RX8 Renesis front cover with it= s water pump and ignition pickup and retain the stock oil pump........= This mount could also be used many other aircraft that normally would = use 

the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by us= ing the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring (currently available from "Vans" for a= bout $150.00) with a 13BREW engine (all alloy if wanted)........ 

 

          &nbs= p; This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at this time ca= nnot report a time schedule for its completion.........I have committed for= the first "Beta" housing for testing 

and will keep the forum appraised of pr= ogress...........The forum is probably tired of me cluttering it up with th= is subject so for the time being any of the group that have an interest in<= u>

this project or have any additional que= stions or concerns may E mail me directly if they choose.........= .Thanks for listening...........

 

Best Regards

Kelly Troyer       =  

 

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Tr= oyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Guys,

    More info on the "Glasair= 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary engine.........

 

 

Kelly Troyer

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Tr= oyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Lynn,

    Forgot to mention what th= e "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugged o= il galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plat= e that

incorporated the oil filter and a "Vern= itherm" (a Continental part I think)  to bypass the oil cooler un= til oil temp got up to about 150 degrees F........I have this plate al= so..........

 

Kelly Troyer

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Tr= oyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Marc & Lynn

   Yes the photo of the "Mist= ral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will look like exc= ept it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & rear housings and will be= "P" ported........Their

early 13B engines were based on the 198= 6-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount scheme that comb= ines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to th= e 

front iron and incorporates the water p= ump and mount for the alternator plus the pickup for their electronic = ignition..........It also had provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump= .........I did not get

the gears for this drive (less expense)= (electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynaf= ocal Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........

 

Thanks,

Kelly Troyer

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanove= r lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:

In both pictures the mount appears = to attach to the front iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to th= e left side of the front iron (black plate).............LEH

 

In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM = Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net wr= ites:

 

 

Great stuff. I saw and = read that Kitplanes article with great interest back when.=

Here’s some conic= al mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe they ar= e all Mistral, but don’t know where they came from originally (perhap= s Paul Lamar’s group) One is a 13B named ‘Steve’. Hopeful= ly these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it = difficult to send larger files, so I didn’t send all of them I have j= ust of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here?

Marc

 =

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM<= br>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda F= ront Side Housing

 

Le Roux,

    Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of= questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistral= s" alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorpora= ted the "30 Degre= e/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine moun= t..........This is

what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to c= ome up with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the= accessory drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electr= ic airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words..........=

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer 

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach br= eytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /u>

  Dave & Charlie,

 

    Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used t= he bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points th= at used the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.......= ..I know this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I= have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port"= 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C)=

side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its = mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded int= o a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earlie= st "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had moun= t points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) an= d

only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine= .........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engines t= hey sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their part= s

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)...= .........The last iteration of their engines were designed to be certi= fiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing trail..........S= o they made

engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "= Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft us= e..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were n= ot

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps= will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines..........=

 

Best,

Kelly Troyer   

 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com= > wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

     Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side hous= ing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount = points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda= eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline= and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 de= gree "Dyna1" mount system.............

 

     Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on us= ing the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about th= e need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sum= p to

further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the = O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 50= 0 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much li= ghter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy ho= usings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never

heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their = engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven on= e way or another in actual use..........IMHO

Best

Kelly Troyer

 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.= net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b des= igns?

M

Sent from my iPad

 

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jeps= on wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:

 

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not work= ed out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold= side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to = eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and mov= e around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recomme= nded with the rotary. If  you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do it = without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. YM= MV

Bill Jepson

 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /u>

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing <= /span>capability to produce an Aviation= Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing machined from 7075-T6 with mount points that would allow= these engines

to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree nu= mber 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Ly= coming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary desig= n stage and at this

point I am a go between to see if there w= ould be any interest in this product if and when it is produced.......= ....I personally am interested this side plate........As we on this forum k= now both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly

= amazing power levels both= naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's= RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+= hp almost bolt in engine...........

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs= " and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycomi= ng IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp.......= ....There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing worl= d with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breat= hing hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be = in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments p= ro or con..............  <= u>

 

 

Kelly Troyer


 

 

 

 



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Kelly Troyer
Dyk= e Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
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