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Group, Link to a little "EYE Candy"............Expensive 20B all alloy buildup..........
Kelly Troyer Marc, The footprint (gasket ) of the Renesis Rx8 front cover is almost the same as the early 13B/20B front covers...........Their are some bolt spacing differences that are easily programed into the "Aircraft Specific Front housing" that we are trying to produce............Mark Stietle (formally of this group but since passed) adapted the RX8 Renesis water pump to his 20B powered Lancair by cutting the water pump part of a Renesis from a front cover and bolted it to his 20B.........One mounting bolt was not able to be used.......He retained the original 20B front cover......... I do not know how many flight hours Mark put on this water pump conversion but it was still flying up until his passing.........If you are just wanting to put the complete Renesis front cover on a stock 13BREW or 20B front iron housing I am not sure if there would be bolt bosses in the proper place......With an alloy front housing bolt bosses can be located wherever we want them.. Renesis front covers are readily available as are their water pumps.......If you look into the Rotary Racing Crowd you will find turbo versions of the Renesis......If anything the Renesis water pump has a bigger heat load because of the exhaust exiting into the side housings...........IMHO.........Hope this answers some of your questions..........
Best, Kelly Troyer Kelly, I’m still in, but need to make sure what needs to change from a 13Brewtt/20B to mate up to a RX8 2004-2008 cover. And are they and their water pump still (more or less) available? Not sure the RX8 pump can handle the turbo variants……………….might need options. M From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2020 6:48 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics Marc & Ernest, Ernest first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and no guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the problem..........There are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates (For an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the four (4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental) that normally use any of the several variations O/IO 540 engines..........As stated previously this mount ring is available (Just the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already purchased two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The "Mount Ears" of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump so the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are removable and replaceable......... Marc the bolt patterns for all the various front covers are virtually the same with some slight variations in bolt spacing and the number of bolts..........We are currently planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis 2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit within the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator boss which stands on top of the water pump housing..............This will necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be used also (We Think) but it is more complicated and incorporates the oil filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better option...........Also the current plan is to take oil directly from the oil pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front housing (Plugged on the stock side housing) directly to the oil filter and oil cooler instead of out the front cover (A weak point particularly in early covers at high oil pressure).............As far as front covers it would be simple to order bolt spacing for what ever cover you want (But) Here is the problem...............The early water pump alloy housings and cast iron water pumps are not only heavy but they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we are not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring ........That is the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requires the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We do not anticipate producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything we produce will be only for the 13B/20B engines...........All good questions and we are trying to come up with best solutions for several possible problems......... Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk) O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to it........This was done so we could accurately place the Eccentric shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 crankshaft centerline within the confines of the mount ring and judge how everything will fit........... Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in the AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, but I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as well as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements. I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit with some sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe others. I’ve seen them offered before. Marc From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics Charlie, After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is something that could be doable...........Just for your information my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front housing in front of me but I believe it is a little thicker than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This extra thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , spacers , and pulley stack necessary........ Something to investigate !!.......... Charlie, Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exhaust inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thought though......... Hi Kelly,
I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but made for the Renesis.
Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is welcome.
Charlie
On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Todd, Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the group forum...............As a further note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... Hi Kelly; This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise considering alternative engines. While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another project where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go engine mount. However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I may not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But more often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. Flyrotary Forum Members, I appreciate the response of all members to my posts regarding the possible production of an "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate" that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" engine mount ring.............. There are several aftermarket companies currently producing all the alloy side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is a front side housing specifically designed with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........The current plan is to use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many other aircraft that normally would use the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW engine (all alloy if wanted)........ This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I have committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time being any of the group that have an interest in this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... Guys, More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary engine......... Lynn, Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 degrees F........I have this plate also.......... Marc & Lynn Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to the front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring......... In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black plate).............LEH In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest back when. Here’s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don’t know where they came from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar’s group) One is a 13B named ‘Steve’. Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn’t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? Marc From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing Le Roux, Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side housing / accessory drive that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come up with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the accessory drives and using the stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April 2011 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C) side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their parts were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing trail..........So they made engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were not adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degree "Dyna1" mount system............. Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs? M Kelly, The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. YMMV I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing capability to produce an Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing machined from 7075-T6 with mount points that would allow these engines
to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this
point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly
amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........
The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling
1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO
Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............
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-- Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
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