X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=cfj3xJT8MDEZtCRTBNCPLQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=UET6yIEc7ymCQIfAa_QA:9 a=Mdxya_ghUgAcQQVM:21 a=t7-B_jyoSoqXkFQN:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=YRiVctRGIxN0S-8QQAkA:9 a=we48cOK0U-i7Uki9:21 a=C_JJ5irq3baLvonD:21 a=Jjj-aqMrkhkHvD-d:21 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f196.google.com ([209.85.208.196] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 518835 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:51:01 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.196; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f196.google.com with SMTP id q7so10603611ljm.1 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:51:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cNGa8kEvDldQD1UNw4gxvixSMQ/HXJKcAKlWHm5ZLP8=; b=BxmoCx9SkXglsDjBldOKsvMfwUNI25w+Gtu7wzGSizvmgx9NIYVAz6u7qxILrEzApg 48j/yNfvZdEME67hDlOYDKbsGO5EbSvxMfbXhPTf3Wh75uihyyKPbFAPW+RP6ml9tbqc ORBwd5PcVbVTxXSfLZrobfcIxRhInJunYiV1Kh6gaV3V1aGcNRjp6Ra6elAZghPgU+yA qOWMywWNkKgI/TbcMP6W5du2oWnXzuqn0EXqFGDk2EpZA6V7JFtgipzGxLn8Iu9E//A7 ACLLqVZbpkyfsq9MfOzCeVaCMx70lYdzfrwx8Yn31tQQ5tS4k9QtlH7oQX0iJUgAZQYZ 5aLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=cNGa8kEvDldQD1UNw4gxvixSMQ/HXJKcAKlWHm5ZLP8=; b=pZM4jslL5VgN44P2mhl7l49JOuo5ybAzG2DUA7/hf0WV+DwDRtxFHe5MYb32QZ0wZu VMCf9So4KeJEqRJhQ+ttOTZw++fNyJYM45BLhfmbOG6L1Lnj25pOX/4X5QiSQxMvjduz rUpGPqDvl43gbJXD+4k2uFe5cPjaPYV8KSHTtUbz/G9/Si1BK/VZiDxCDYG+gmzrugTr trAkcdsqx/Y/Wsb7lwW0zoLv12L5WX43VAUY34KzMpDaVtYCW1WclRn/SxYACV6RJ1eW CpEOhS1sBA6u4u5D7UG61yMi8HBu42dy4b1gwcdKJMj4Si9wcs/R/d3Y8jj+/89TdAl/ ScoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cErlI29sGo0QQMKcHoq+WRLO9mq7y1FJU3ztFru3UqeUfcxy1 mTgf6sQzVX3h1jaA1zzKogh1qKvaVOuW7mxOpD4X9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIc9dm3kZeM4F/pApnPcm8mWGeLiG5rMya8sgw33VNk7i5LMwd96HsLYeMyOBUyjLCT+53Q6v/MhsB6lo9SGU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8043:: with SMTP id p3mr39499792ljg.469.1594511443403; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:50:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 18:48:15 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002ca7e905aa332047" --0000000000002ca7e905aa332047 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marc & Ernest, Ernest first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and no guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the problem..........There are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates (For an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the four (4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental) that normally use any of the several variations O/IO 540 engines..........As stated previously this mount ring is available (Just the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already purchased two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The *"Mount Ears"* of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump so the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are removable and replaceable......... Marc the bolt patterns for all the various front covers are virtually the same with some slight variations in bolt spacing and the number of bolts..........We are currently planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis 2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit within the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator boss which stands on top of the water pump housing..............This will necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be used also (We Think) but it is more complicated and incorporates the oil filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better option...........Also the current plan is to take oil directly from the oil pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front housing (Plugged on the stock side housing) directly to the oil filter and oil cooler instead of out the front cover (A weak point particularly in early covers at high oil pressure).............As far as front covers it would be simple to order bolt spacing for what ever cover you want (*But) Here is the problem*...............The early water pump alloy housings and cast iron water pumps are not only heavy but they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we are not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring ........That is the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requires the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We do not anticipate producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything we produce will be only for the 13B/20B engines...........All good questions and we are trying to come up with best solutions for several possible problems......... Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk) O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to it........This was done so we could accurately place the Eccentric shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 crankshaft centerline within the confines of the mount ring and judge how everything will fit........... Best, Kelly Troyer On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the > what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft > trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in t= he > AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, bu= t > I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as we= ll > as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements. > > I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit with > some sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe others. I= =E2=80=99ve > seen them offered before. > > > > Marc > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B > Mazda Front Side Housing-pics > > > > Charlie, > > After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mistral > Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is > something that could be doable...........Just for your > > information my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the > "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front > housing in front of me but I believe it is a little thicker > > than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This > extra thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , > spacers , and pulley stack necessary........ > > Something to investigate !!.......... > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Charlie, > > Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how > well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through > them and could stainless or inconel exhaust > > inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) > ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my > knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I > > suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto > performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B > platform...........Food for thought though......... > > > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Kelly, > > I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be > in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the > Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style > accessory housing, but made for the Renesis. > > Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is > welcome. > > Charlie > > On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: > > Todd, > > Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I > hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further > discussion on the group forum...............As a further > > note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will > probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the > "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have > > a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke > Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... > > > > Thanks Again, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Kelly; > > This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical > engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise > considering alternative engines. > > While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't raise= d > my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another project > where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go engine > mount. > > However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of > this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I ma= y > not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as > we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion > pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and > encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. > > The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, > sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what > the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But mor= e > often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. > > > > Todd > > C-FSTB > > RV9 13Bturbo > > > > On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Flyrotary Forum Members, > > I appreciate the response of all members to my posts > regarding the possible production of an *"Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B > combination Engine mount/Side plate"* > > that would be a direct bolt in to a* Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" > engine mount ring.............. *There are several aftermarket companies > currently producing all the alloy > > side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto > Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is = a > front side housing specifically designed > > with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft > that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO > 540 engine..........The current plan is to > > use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup > and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many > other aircraft that normally would use > > the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount > ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW > engine (all alloy if wanted)........ > > > > This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at > this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I have > committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing > > and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is > probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time > being any of the group that have an interest in > > this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me > directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... > > > > Best Regards > > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Guys, > > More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based > rotary engine......... > > > > https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/ > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Lynn, > > Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took > oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to= a > machined "O" ringed alloy plate that > > incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I > think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 degre= es > F........I have this plate also.......... > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Marc & Lynn > > Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my > 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & re= ar > housings and will be "P" ported........Their > > early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn > this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and > front cover into one unit that bolts to the > > front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator > plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had > provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get > > the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my > housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming O/IO > 320-360 mount ring......... > > > > Thanks, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a > cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black > plate).............LEH > > > > In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > > > > > Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest > back when. > > Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my ha= rd drive, > I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came fr= om > originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80= =98Steve=E2=80=99. > Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that > makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of = them I > have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? > > Marc > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side > Housing > > > > Le Roux, > > Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from > the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side > housing / accessory drive > > that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated > the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine > mount..........This is > > what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come up > with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the > accessory drives and using the > > stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electri= c > airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... > > Thanks Again, > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach > breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > > Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in Apri= l > 2011 > > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTR= AL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg > > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTR= AL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg > > > > > > > > > Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral > mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and > mounting > > Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 > > > > https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ > > > > Le Roux > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave & Charlie, > > > > Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front > cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the > Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this > > as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I > have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port= " > 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C= ) > > side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its > mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a > cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other > > housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest > "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount > points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) an= d > > only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the > engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engine= s > they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their > parts > > were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my > engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to b= e > certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing > trail..........So they made > > engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock > "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft > use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that we= re > not > > adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps > will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... > > > > Best, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Charlie and Mark, > > Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be > replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replica= te > the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric > > shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline > and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degree > "Dyna1" mount system............. > > > > Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear dyn= a > focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for .500 > in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to > > further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the > O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over > 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and > > that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much > lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used allo= y > housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never > > heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their > engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven > one way or another in actual use..........IMHO > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b > designs? > > M > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > Kelly, > > The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worke= d > out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold > side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to > eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and > move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not > recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do > it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. YM= MV > > Bill Jepson > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capabi= lity > to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing > machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these engines* > > *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as > used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 54= 0 > engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at > this* > > > > > > > > > > *point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this > product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested > this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are > capable of trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo > boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair= 's > that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in > engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are > producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines > that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are > turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good > reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing > hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in this > product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or > con..............* > > > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > > > > > > --0000000000002ca7e905aa332047 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Marc & Ernest,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Erne= st=C2=A0first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and no guar= antee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design stage.= ..........The plate for a stock engine is not the problem..........There
are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plat= es (For an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a f= ront sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the four
(4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt u= p" to the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1&= quot; mount cushions as used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraf= t (Experimental)
that normally=C2=A0use any of the several variat= ions O/IO 540 engines..........As stated previously this mount ring=C2=A0is= available (Just the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.0= 0.........I have already purchased=C2=A0
two of these...........L= et it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines used a "18 degree ,= Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans to produce Blackplate= / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The
"Mo= unt Ears" of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump= =C2=A0so the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are=C2=A0removable a= nd replaceable.........=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marc t= he bolt patterns for all the various front covers are virtually the same wi= th some slight variations=C2=A0 in bolt spacing and the number of bolts....= ......We=C2=A0 are currently=C2=A0planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis
2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit = within the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator= =C2=A0boss which stands on top of the water pump=C2=A0housing..............= This will
necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has= not been worked out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front c= over could be used also (We Think) but it is more complicated=C2=A0and inco= rporates the=C2=A0
oil=C2=A0filter and we think a larger remote f= ilter is a better option...........Also the current plan is to take oil dir= ectly=C2=A0from the oil pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil gall= ey on the side of the front housing (Plugged=C2=A0on the=C2=A0
st= ock side housing) directly to the oil filter=C2=A0and oil cooler instead of= out the front=C2=A0cover (A weak point particularly=C2=A0in early covers a= t high oil pressure).............As far as front covers it would=C2=A0be si= mple to order bolt=C2=A0
spacing for what ever=C2=A0cover you wan= t (But) Here is the problem...............The early water pump=C2=A0= alloy housings and cast iron water pumps are not only heavy but they do not= fit in the confines of the O/IO 540
mount ring and if the use of= the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we are not sure at this time if = it would clear the mount ring ........That is the reason for use of the RX8= Renesis front cover (which requires=C2=A0
the use of a crankshaf= t trigger ignition).........We do not anticipate=C2=A0producing a plate to = fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything=C2=A0we produce=C2=A0 will be only f= or the 13B/20B engines...........All good questions and we=C2=A0
= are trying to come up with best solutions for several=C2=A0 possible proble= ms.........

=C2=A0 Just as a note of interest I ha= ve purchased a non airworthy (Junk)=C2=A0 O-540 crankcase and currently hav= e the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to it........This was done s= o we could accurately place the Eccentric
shaft centerline of the= 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 crankshaft centerline within = the confines of the mount ring and judge how everything will fit...........= =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

Best,
Kelly Troyer= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese= cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t; wrote:

Just r= emember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the what?? The = 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft trigger ign ty= pe distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in the AT version), = etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, but I bet there a= re some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as well as the trigg= er/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements.

I think that place in Australia offers alu= minum side housings, abeit with some sort of embedded wear surface (??? imp= ortant), and maybe others. I=E2=80=99ve seen them offered before.=

=C2=A0

Marc

=

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
<= b>Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW= : [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics

=C2=A0

<= div>

Charlie,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After rereading your post I missed your point of using = a "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate.......= .....Now that is something that could=C2=A0be doable...........Just for you= r

information=C2=A0my &q= uot;Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the &qu= ot;Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis&= quot; front housing in front=C2=A0of me but I believe it is a little thicke= r

than a 13B/20B front h= ousing because of the exhaust port..........This extra thickness would=C2= =A0probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , spacers , and pulley = stack necessary........

= =C2=A0 Something to investigate !!..........

Best

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 10= , 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie,

=C2=A0Interesting point.........First question off= the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate ex= haust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exhaust<= u>

inserts as in the 13B/20B be pu= t in them (cost being a factor also) ?.............All the aftermarket allo= y side plates being produced to my knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines...= .......I

suppose=C2=A0it= could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance people us= ing alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thought t= hough.........

= =C2=A0

Best=C2=A0=

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Kelly,

I hate to muddy the= waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be in a Renesis plate v= s the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the Renesis, for various = reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but m= ade for the Renesis.

Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd = said, any and all info is welcome.

Charlie

On 7/10/2020 6:33 = PM, Kelly Troyer kelt= ro@gmail.com wrote:

=C2=A0 Todd,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the co= mment and it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise from a maj= ority of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the group for= um...............As a further

note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I wil= l probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead = of the "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have=C2=A0

a 20B but it would be seriou= sly=C2=A0too much power and weight for my "Dyke Delta" even if th= e 20B were all alloy housings..........

=C2=A0

T= hanks Again,

Kelly Troye= r

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Ba= rtrim bartrim@gmail.= com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Kelly;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This mount idea is an excellent idea = worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a major roadblock to many bui= lders that are otherwise considering alternative engines.

=

=C2=A0 While I'm not currently in the= market for one myself, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "count m= e in", but the future could bring another project where I would be hap= py to have that availability of a ready to go engine mount.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0However I'd like to en= courage you to keep all further discussion of this topic online. I'd mu= ch rather simply delete a conversation that I may not have an interest in, = than see the list with no discussion at all as we've seen all too often= in the recent past. Any and all discussion pertaining to rotary powered ai= rcraft helps to keep the list active and encouraging to other builders, as = well as adding ideas to the archives.

=C2=A0 The archives have been a gold mine of info for me ove= r the years, sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight a= s to "what the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some fail= ed concept. But more often than not as a source of info for more successful= concepts.

=C2=A0=

Todd

C-FSTB

RV9 13Bturbo

<= u>=C2=A0

On Fri., Jul. 10, 2= 020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Flyrotary= =C2=A0Forum Members,=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate=C2=A0the r= esponse of all members to my posts regarding the possible production of an = "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plat= e"

that would b= e a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" e= ngine mount ring.............. There are several aftermarket companies = currently producing all the alloy

side housings that are necessary=C2=A0for an all alloy 13B= /20B for the auto Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce = at this time is a front side housing specifically designed

with the proper mount points to be essen= tially bolt in to any aircraft that normally be powered by any of several= =C2=A0versions of the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........The current plan is= to

use the RX8 Renesis = front cover with its water pump and ignition=C2=A0pickup and retain the sto= ck oil pump........This mount could also be used many other aircraft=C2=A0t= hat normally would use=C2=A0

the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount= ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a = 13BREW engine (all alloy if wanted)........=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is a project that I= have a personal interest in and at this time cannot report a time schedule= for its completion.........I have committed for the first "Beta"= housing for testing=C2=A0

and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is pro= bably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time being = any of the group that have an interest in

this project or have any additional questions or concerns= may E=C2=A0mail=C2=A0me directly if they choose..........Thanks for listen= ing...........

= =C2=A0

Best Regards

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer = keltro@gmail.com = <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Guys,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 More info on the "Glasair 3" in Euro= pe with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary engine.........=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Kelly Troyer

<= /div>

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:

Lynn,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.....= ....."Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on = the side of the front iron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate t= hat

incorporated the oil= filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I think)=C2=A0 to = bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp got up to about 150 degrees = F........I have this plate also..........

=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer

= =C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:= 43 PM Kelly Troyer ke= ltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Marc & Lynn <= /u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes the photo of the= "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will lo= ok like=C2=A0except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center &= rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their<= /p>

early 13B engines were based on the 19= 86-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount scheme that com= bines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to t= he=C2=A0

front iron and = incorporates the water pump=C2=A0and mount for the alternator plus the pick= up for their electronic ignition..........It also had provisions for a driv= e for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.........I did not get

=

the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric air= plane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal=C2= =A0Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........

=

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Kelly Troyer

= =C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:= 31 PM lehanover leha= nover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

In both pictures th= e mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a cast oil pan and a pl= ate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black plate).............LEH=

=C2=A0

In a message dated 7/9/2020 = 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: <= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great inte= rest back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate picture= s I found on my hard drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80= =99t know where they came from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s gro= up) One is a 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get th= ru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send la= rger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backpla= te, what is the MB/KB limit here?

Marc

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: Rotary motors i= n aircraft
Sent:= Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific = 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing

=C2=A0=

Le Roux,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks= for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of questions from the gro= up..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side= housing / accessory drive

that was headed f= or US & European certification.........It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ea= rs" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........Th= is is

what this thread is all about.........= .My friend is attempting=C2=A0to come up with a less expensive version of t= his=C2=A0plate but without all the accessory=C2=A0drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and= ignition pickup (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousan= d words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux B= reytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly : Just saw this on the archive= on our group thread you post in April 2011

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 http://mail.lan= caironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPl= ate_drawing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Dating back to April 2011 that you have post re= garding the Mistral mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynaf= ocal set up and mounting

Here is the article= of Paul Janssens Glasair 111

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

<= p>Le Roux

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t; wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave &= ; Charlie,

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines= used=C2=A0the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mou= nt points that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1&q= uot; mount ring.........I know this

as fact = as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I have all t= he housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port" = 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C)<= u>

side housing because I was not comfortable h= aving my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only by several = 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front si= de housing.........All the other

housings (C= enter & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest &= quot;Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also ha= d mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mou= nt) and

only used the bottom two mount point= s on the accessory end of the engine.........At that=C2=A0point in "Mi= stral's" engine development the engines they sold to experimenters= were basically "Mazda" engines and all their parts=

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engi= ne (such as my engine)............The last iteration of their engines were = designed=C2=A0to be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manuf= acturing trail..........So they made

enginee= ring changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Mazda= " parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for aircraft us= e..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were n= ot

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" = engines...........Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the &qu= ot;Mistral" series of engines..........

=C2=A0

Best,

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:<= u>

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0&= quot;iron"=C2=A0side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminu= m housing with built in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 m= ount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric

sha= ft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline and m= ake the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 degree &= quot;Dyna1" mount system.............

<= u>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well awa= re of the different opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazd= a.........Bill is correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a sti= ffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to

furth= er resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the O/IO 540= family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs fo= r some turbo models are all using this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will b= e much lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B o= r 20B used alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I = have never

heard if they used the oversize .= 500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........This is probably a = question that will have to be proven one way or another in actual use......= ....IMHO

Best

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

<= p>On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

Wonder why Mist= ral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?

M

Sent f= rom my iPad

=C2= =A0

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepso= n wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=

=C2=A0

Kelly,

The "dynafocal&quo= t; type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked out well..One= of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold side. Various m= ethods have been used to limit this but there is no way to eliminate it com= pletely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and move arou= nd on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recommended w= ith the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do it wi= thout a stud kit. You will have better results=C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV=

Bill Jepson

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly = Troyer keltro@gmail.c= om <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufact= uring=C2=A0capability to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined fr= om 7075-T6=C2=A0<= strong>with mount points tha= t=C2=A0would allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engine mount rin= g (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other= aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is= in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am a go between = to see if there would be any interest in this product if and when it is=C2= =A0produced...........I personally am interested this side plate........As = we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly

amazing po= wer levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would= make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycomin= g O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........=

The "Re= no" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing = almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are vir= tual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's = pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability......= ....A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO=

Wou= ld like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when it m= ay be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= Kelly Troyer

<= /div>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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