X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=aUb0gpmLtesR8ZTSUQD2JA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=2iYu5QyRowwA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=c5LPy09xdT68sES2jfwA:9 a=_uSfp_BqdFvUMLTy:21 a=t7n_Q72WtsyEzuA3:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=kTskIYjpFFbO7qsswIIA:9 a=vrcMpgURoTReuELZ:21 a=tclaRj28mFpW3AdU:21 a=QMrX8V7Wn3kjci9A:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic317-26.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.129.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 509917 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 14:31:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.129.81; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1594319463; bh=q2J8etgTaAXyQNgXnaWr5w5jKMDHeV3PzCsjYmml674=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=Y6T40XDP1vrRS6rHrBGnlvea8R62Wc7yj4OP6BcSlf0r+K7SSSQgzkPLWiP7NSl0CZ3zTbBz4DYFbAlfgciwnBulRnjdzOxaBE7bIaJo9YGypkcFGLFSE1WVSfjRHkg6ptqMsxxbvSYyu6JknkcQWtcy54zRn0CNLryXD8VdR4sGGBPby5R3AkV4uet8BV3rXNhmMTP65PWQ54yGmdJpy7wHXeMXs6FbpyrV8DdsosOowR7ZTznAVxAiNNJdCD/6s+jY0949Ewm9/uDXZqTN7z1cqoWZYx3kdnLRXeg6Lr0v5LnOoJf2Ba3BiqdtweG5RJmX0MYonjI+dMY66DqGig== X-YMail-OSG: 5yAbCEIVM1nqmMF.yAhb3CKLDs64ouTNDXaD0NukH_q12E6MRw5NEPelH_y5mHA OxSRGZUMC7zu9OkZ9UgVpgGo_cS8DA8V1fiKGBDJ0nFmpFRvOAjneKKuKyYbwZIZiJGppdup8Ojl PRiSQQu7zY_sJDIeJLPpMtENatiD97Fw8NgKjBIzSCWPTbEXVg6WngNOSSTWeeSYmXsv.fipv6Ix ZWPsr3U8e1lZhik4ddM1FTsOO_Rkl4eWt_hrcr_DKnzFJYbZVcY8E.qoTYY0mQ6zXpILZuLH9KEy VKQ3GFkJ7nisEeWYVD_INCT0_Tnj272ymBRIJ.y4HypBQ8jsq1v90.mYFU.CQ4AAD9W0T2pK4w4G tbxQx41PhvOeQ1PbbwXh7lR9hbi8GvH4KViWs.chjKmz8qgwt7jlp3.b4IX0wrmY7HwUCnHHwvz4 _rXTv_B9xT8Y4ZG5QeHkLH5wfUXnNahWCkkpcdBTM2BGkAc9SOUTGhQki1pa.XR0VB8R1sNFXUxX hBOSG3X8kBv_xGZPJmV0nnQIhuJLt87jImkNGY6ocHUToQUZR8palHmIxMTLn0MfKcepKvns8WY8 VOBtmvF98lzp2xU8Y11DzeE3xhwH28mBrp6oRhGwrK8iyzOhBsejZYyTbGH8gSNvHeXyT32bQEUV BFzQt0fr_pVwu4Pis8WIGJl1enyY8S3kq9169v.g.JqPUURcrGrUWtd0QWCsw0E1ArSPHSppfmvJ kwtXCTylt_dLIFmlqPOg.C7XSL7sNPQK.Z9iD0cLAuWWS8l2jWxEJr1WFSK7JWHYLfz4rupSFt7L N1uIGgzZpIKoYTp52Qe7wxX7b92aWRrmA31N_JGO5tQy2LXsErHJMKYD8zOhP2HBdl5Ra.N6ghUI mKZOFjU6nl75cDpPrMNJxDCb2Zms89KOpDT6Gxz7.P0M0GPP5nRcmAmVmExVFnW1WS9jh8zm1hs0 DmIXPCRgLJ7wnujYu7ng2_SrYfy5dR4Z2jap2vrgtp48ABN2dt7e730dhBNr5nss5DnAOMFiDKWH JWawVb8nvh.icLW.VIZAc7rYO3jm2abuIQEKvZ0SUdSM0N_QgS1h7Xf5cntGkVCY4kAHRMROpg7L _hZZQgcVOXPIHT1QLAwyFqQYlYjNNcRo_CJJ22PtZd6PEVoc4qux2uWYipxiJKpXYDWcvJmx6yY5 EqB8qYiBf6vQAsYkFnrLrWV.0JCwvvJnA3rsFIMq54IQUPXNP.C60fXpszb.qtBzc_rWZXYMR0qf vqulo8uPgYZZjYDfah0cqwCyfsvOILDQm5gUoUZrUcuh3RWQsYcyqa.p5dkZSeYRp0vAhLi14eji s5TV8Xf14PmKhzY0HHXfG Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jul 2020 18:31:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 18:31:02 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <440020136.2657469.1594319462672@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2657468_2009454573.1594319462668" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16197 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_252) Content-Length: 26631 ------=_Part_2657468_2009454573.1594319462668 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a ca= st oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black pla= te).............LEH In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes: =C2=A0 Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest back= when. Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard= drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they c= ame from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named= =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture = limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn= =E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB= limit here? Marc =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing =C2=A0 Le Roux, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of qu= estions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" = alloy side housing / accessory drive that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated the= "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount.....= .....This is what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to come= up with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the ac= cessory=C2=A0drives and using the stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric = airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... Thanks Again, Kelly troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail= .com wrote: Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April = 2011 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTRAL= _%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/= MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mounting= here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mounting Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/=C2=A0 Le Roux =C2=A0 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: =C2=A0 Dave & Charlie, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0the = bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that = used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I= know this as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I ha= ve all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13= BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C) side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mou= nts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a= cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mis= tral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount point= s at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine...= ......At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine development the engines they= sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their parts were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)......= ......The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0to be certifia= ble so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail..........So t= hey made engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Maz= da" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for aircraft use..= ........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were not adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps wi= ll enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... Best, Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: Charlie and Mark, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2=A0side housing= is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount poi= nts that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda ec= centric shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline an= d make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 degre= e "Dyna1" mount system............. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using= the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the n= eed for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump t= o further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the O/I= O 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 l= bs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much light= er..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy housi= ngs for other than the front accessory housing and I have never heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their eng= ines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven one w= ay or another in actual use..........IMHO Best Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote: Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b design= s? M Sent from my iPad =C2=A0 On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com wrote: =C2=A0 Kelly, The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked = out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold si= de. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to eli= minate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and move a= round on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recommende= d with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do it wit= hout a stud kit. You will have better results=C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV Bill Jepson =C2=A0 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2=A0capabi= lity to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Hou= sing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0would allow the= se engines to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used = by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engin= e..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this produ= ct if and when it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested thi= s side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable= of truly amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The= 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycom= ing O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine........... The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mp= h speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand gre= nades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling 1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B b= oosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when i= t may be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............=C2=A0= =C2=A0 -- Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html ------=_Part_2657468_2009454573.1594319462668 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the f= ront iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the= front iron (black plate).............LEH

In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes:

 

Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest back when= .

Here’s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found = on my hard drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don’t know wher= e they came from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar’s group) One is a 13B named ‘Ste= ve’. Hopefu= lly these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it= difficult to send larger files, so I didn’t send all of them I have<= /span> just of the backp= late, what is the MB/KB limit here?

Marc

 

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Avi= ation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing

 

Le Roux,

    Thanks for digging t= his up as it will answer a lot of questions from the group..........This wa= s the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European c= ertification.........It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount E= ars" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is

what this thread is all about..........= My friend is attempting to come up with a less expensive version of th= is plate but without all the accessory drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water= pump and ignition pickup (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth = a thousand words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer 

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux= Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on= our group thread you post in April 2011



  http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%2= 0RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg  


 


Dating back to April 2011 that you have= post regarding the Mistral mounting here you post some photos of the Mistr= al dynafocal set up and mounting

Here is the article of Paul Janssens Gl= asair 111



Le Roux

 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Tr= oyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

  Dave & Charlie,


    Only the early "Mistral" = 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front cover/accessory drive all= oy cover that had mount points that used the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dy= nafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one = of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build = a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast= iron front (Rear in tractor A/C)

side housing because I was not comforta= ble having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only by sev= eral 6 mm bolts threaded into a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side ho= using.........All the other

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy = "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this al= loy front cover but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine = (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and

only used the bottom two mount points o= n the accessory end of the engine.........At that point in "Mistral's"= engine development the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "= Mazda" engines and all their parts

were directly adaptable to a stock "Maz= da" engine (such as my engine)............The last iteration of their engin= es were designed to be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable&nb= sp;manufacturing trail..........So they made

engineering changes in their parts to e= liminate things about the stock "Mazda" parts that were not needed or = were improvements for aircraft use..........Most of the last versions of th= eir engines had parts that were not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines.= ..........Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" s= eries of engines..........


Best,

Kelly Troyer   

 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly T= royer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

     Yes Charlie the acc= essory "iron" side housing is what would be replaced with an alum= inum housing with built in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 54= 0 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as t= he Lycoming crankshaft centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircr= aft using the O/IO 540 30 degree "Dyna1" mount system.............


     Mark I am well awar= e of the different opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda= .........Bill is correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stif= fening plate and/or rigid oil sump to

further resistance to torsional twistin= g..........But remember that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall f= orward weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using = this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with= reduction drive) will be much lighter..........I do not believe that the "= Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy housings for other than the front accessory = housing and I have never

heard if they used the oversize .550 in= ch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........This is probably a questi= on that will have to be proven one way or another in actual use..........IM= HO

Best

Kelly Troyer

 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus W= iese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net> wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type = mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?

M

Sent from my iPad

 =

On Jul= 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type mount has been tri= ed on the rotary but has not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary tra= its is that it has a hot and cold side. Various methods have been used to l= imit this but there is no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this t= he engine tends to "work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as= a stressed member is not recommended with the rotary. If  you were to= do this anyway I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better r= esults using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson

 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Tr= oyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person w= ith the design and manufacturing capability to = produce an Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Fro= nt Side Housing machined from 7075-T6 with m= ount points that would allow these engines

to = be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by = the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..= ........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this
<= br>point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this pr= oduct if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested = this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capa= ble of truly

amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo= boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair'= s that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine.....= ......

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing= almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are vi= rtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pul= ling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability.....= .....A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO
Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when= it may be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............  


--

Kelly = Troyer

 



 



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrota= ry.com/
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