From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 08:12:58 +0800
References: <list-405242@logan.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
In-Reply-To: <list-405242@logan.com>
Message-Id: <60C03A9F-9658-4006-AACE-A7AD3741C052@gmail.com>

Thanks Bobby.=20

I=E2=80=99m not concerned over the different sizes, the EC2 mode #6 =
takes care of the math with no worry there.
I was considering the size for idle, yet when I=E2=80=99ve thought about =
it, I like the idle just under 2000rpm and=20
with the prop load it would be burning a heap more fuel than in a car =
with the clutch depressed I would think.
And in the end if she doesn=E2=80=99t idle quite as well, does that =
matter significantly?
Your matched pairs sounds much more important/significant to me.

I think I=E2=80=99ll test my spare pair of blues and trial them in the =
Primaries.
I=E2=80=99d be really interest to see what Steve (Boese) finds re BSFC =
on the test bed when next he has a chance to=20
run her up. So appreciate your science Steve.

Steve Izett


=20


> On 23 Jun 2020, at 6:41 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>=20
> I suspect smaller injectors will be easier to tune. I would use yellow =
as primary and blue as secondary. I have always had all four injectors =
matched so never had to tune with larger secondary=E2=80=99s.
> =20
> Bobby
> =20
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20=

> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 5:02 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino
> =20
> Thanks Andrew and Bobby.=20
>=20
> If I had a couple of the 420cc Yellow (6 port secondaries) she=E2=80=99l=
l have enough bandwidth for up tp 20=E2=80=9D MAP staged on the =
Primaries only at a max duty cycle of about 80%.
> I do already have some spare 480/520cc blue (4 port secondaries) that =
would mean the primaries would be running at a max duty cycle of about =
63%
> But I read of a tuner who didn=E2=80=99t like the blue injectors. But =
who knows why?
>=20
> Any idea of the difference between using:
> A smaller flow injector at 85% duty cycle Vs
> A larger flow injector at 60% duty cycle.
>=20
> Pattern & Atomisation?
> As Steve Boese notes:-
> Shorter PW makes the injectors behave as if they became smaller since =
the dead time is now a larger fraction of the PW.
>=20
>=20
> Steve Izett
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > On 22 Jun 2020, at 7:29 pm, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >=20
> > Steve,
> >=20
> > I believe the Red injectors are around 290cc, yellow are 420cc and =
blue are 520cc. This is from memory but in the ball park. The yellow =
injectors were used in the six port engines instead of the blue.=20
> >=20
> > Bobby=20
> >=20
> > Sent from my iPad
> >=20
> >> On Jun 21, 2020, at 11:33 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> =EF=BB=BFThanks Bobby
> >>=20
> >> So 4 x yellows is about the same size I believe as the 2 reds and 2 =
blues.
> >> Cheers
> >>=20
> >> Steve
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> > On 22 Jun 2020, at 6:56 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >> >=20
> >> > Steve,
> >> >=20
> >> > Before selling the RV10 I purchased 4 yellow RX8 Denso injectors. =
I believe they are around 425cc. After default my EC3 required very =
little Mode 2/3 adjustment. I was using 540 cc prior to my EC3 needing a =
software patch by Tracy. I decided Tracy had changed my default injector =
size and the Yellow injectors worked great and tuned easier than the =
larger 540cc. I don=E2=80=99t think I could tune with saturated =
injectors. Genuine RX8 Denso injectors are not very expensive. Lots of =
Chinese look-alikes on Amazon ad eBay.=20
> >> >=20
> >> > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it make sense to have fuel being mixed in that =
secondary runner? I=E2=80=99ve pondered the same thing.=20
> >> >=20
> >> > =
https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-fuel-injector-for-MAZDA-450cc-04-08-for-RX8-R=
X7-13B-Miata-yellow-Denso/122405560405?epid=3D1778067132&hash=3Ditem1c7ff0=
a055:g:YFcAAOSwcl1c8Kyh
> >> >=20
> >> > Bobby
> >> >=20
> >> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft =
[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20
> >> > Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 10:39 AM
> >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino
> >> >=20
> >> > Hi Steve Boese or other cleverer people than I.
> >> >=20
> >> > Can you explain or point me to info regarding intake port and =
injector staging.
> >> > In the Renesis engines as an example, the various ports have =
valves (excepting the primaries) and injectors.
> >> > Mazda seems to have done magic to create an intake system that =
supports a usable torque curve over a significant range.
> >> > Now I take it that it would be a mistake to turn on injectors =
while that port was closed.
> >> > But do they open a port, lets say the secondaries in a 4 port =
rotary but not switch on the injectors?
> >> > Now that=E2=80=99s what we are doing with our EC=E2=80=99s, Tracy =
has them on Primaries all the way up to 20=E2=80=9D MAP before the =
secondary injectors turn on.
> >> > So because most of us have removed any valve (open all the time =
as we=E2=80=99re not interested in low rpm) we have a Primary runner =
with fuel being mixed,
> >> > but a Secondary runner without fuel being mixed.
> >> > So during the intake =E2=80=9Cstroke/rotational movement=E2=80=9D =
the two masses of air from either side of the rotor, through seperate =
ports must mix to ideally create an even air/fuel mixture.
> >> > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it make sense to have fuel being mixed in that =
secondary runner?
> >> >=20
> >> > It seems to me that smaller capacity injectors may provide better =
atomisation for lower end engine performance/economy/emissions, =
particularly when only the primary runners were active.
> >> >=20
> >> > I=E2=80=99m also still wondering, should I consider replacing the =
small Primary Injectors that have saturated at times with larger =
injectors making 4 equal injectors?
> >> >=20
> >> > Thanks for all the help.
> >> >=20
> >> > Steve Izett
> >> >=20
> >> >=20
> >> >=20
> >> >=20
> >> > > On 19 Jun 2020, at 11:10 am, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >> > >=20
> >> > > I have a SpeedUino running a 13B test engine. That system is =
already set up with a throttle body position input which is not used in =
the recent version I have. A few code changes allows a potentiometer to =
be used through that input for manual mixture control. I also found it =
not particularly difficult to come up with a dual wheel CAS file to be =
used with the Ardustim signal generator to simulate the 13B CAS for =
testing.
> >> > >=20
> >> > > Steve Boese
> >> > >=20
> >> > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:36 PM, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >> > >=20
> >> > >> =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. =
Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from =
external sources.
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >> Actually Tracy now recommends the SpeedUino boards and using =
TunerStudio (there is a free version) as the modern solution.
> >> > >> Yes, you'll have to do a bit of work if you want redundancy =
and manual mixture control.
> >> > >> I see them on eBay for about $150 each. Add relays to switch =
between the outputs of the boards for redundancy.
> >> > >> A bit of cooperative work on the open source SpeedUino code =
and you could have manual mixture control, if not already done by now.
> >> > >> So it doesn't really doesn't have to be all that expensive. =
Maybe $400 for the hardware. Naturally, if you want an of-the-shelf =
solution and expect hand holding and support, you most likely have to =
pay for it.
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >> So why did I chose a RWS EC3 for the RV-4 I'm building in =
spite of Tracy's recommendation?
> >> > >> The RV-3B I bought and have been flying has RWS EC2 and EM2, =
so I'm familiar with the operation of it.
> >> > >> And I guess I was too lazy to get into SpeedUino and learn =
that. Just seemed easier to install an EC3 and go fly. Would have worked =
too, if I hadn't listened to the warnings about using the stock Renesis =
ignition coils and gone and bought LS2 coils (D585). Also in the back of =
my mind was the track record of Tracy's controllers. I never really had =
a problem with them. In my mind they were reliable and proven. I guess =
one tends towards what one is familiar with. I should say that I still =
kind of enjoy tinkering with software and hardware. There is a certain =
satisfaction in overcoming obstacles and making things work, although it =
can bevery time consuming.
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >> I think we can draw a parallel to the mindset it takes to make =
your engine installation from scratch and just install a Lycoming.=20
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >> So, with the data I now have, I think I would recommend what =
Tracy recommends for any new installations and only get spares for =
working EC2/3 installations. If I understand it right, there is wide =
support for SpeedUino out there.
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >> Finn
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >>=20
> >> > >> On 6/18/2020 6:06 PM, 12348ung@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >>> Re Tracy ECM.
> >> > >>> I note all the grief that is going back and forward and =
sympathise with you all. I had trouble with mine way back, sent it back =
to Tracy and it took 3 months before I saw it again. Decided then that =
this was not a good way to go as Tracy was semi retired then already. =
Tracy to me was absolutely brilliant in what he did, but that was 40 =
years ago?? So I bought a fueltech unit which is current technology but =
very dear compared to Tracy=E2=80=99s ECM. I have not regretted this =
purchase. The engine log can be emailed for support and within 24 hours =
you are fixed up. Then I am totally computer illiterate, so unable to =
fix anything like that myself, so I pay as usual.=20
> >> > >>> Neil.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20=

> >> > >>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 2:10 AM
> >> > >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> >> > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC3 software for Renesis RX-8/LS2 =
coils fixed and uploaded
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Hi Bobby,
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Actually Tracy does have a few new EC3 boards. I didn't ask =
how many.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> The hot question really is how big is the demand (quantity)?
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> I probably have enough data from him (schematics, parts =
lists, PCB layout) to get a production run done.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Tracy is serious about having retired. I was really, really =
lucky to get his help.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> I think a big reason for his decision to retire is to have =
time to enjoy life. I think the majority of his time before his =
retirement was spent on support (phone, emails).
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> He really has no economic incentive to come out of =
retirement.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> So while we could get a production run done, I doubt anyone =
would be willing to spend time on support -- certainly not for new =
installations. Also the variety of engines, accessories and specialized =
programming for some installations would make it a nightmare to program =
the chips. Solution for that would probably be to read the working chips =
for your installation and then program the new chips with that, but then =
some would not get the latest features (closed loop, auto program using =
EC3 w/o EM).
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> I thought I might take it on, but having second thoughts :)
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Will probably be a few days before I'm ready to roll the =
fuselage out of the hangar and do engine runs.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Finn
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> On 6/18/2020 10:18 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net =
wrote:
> >> > >>> Thanks Finn. I downloaded the files and notes. Once you are =
confident the hardware and software works properly we might consider a =
onetime production run of EC3=E2=80=99s for existing EC2/3 owners. I =
would like to have a tested spare available. It would likely take =
Tracy=E2=80=99s involvement to facilitate the board build or at least =
provided the suppler information and proper Rev number.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> I really appreciate the work you, Steve Izett and Steve B. =
are doing.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Bobby
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft =
[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20
> >> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 6:11 PM
> >> > >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> >> > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] EC3 software for Renesis RX-8/LS2 coils =
fixed and uploaded
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Here it is:
> >> > >>> =
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mVzPOxUwcGUlPizxnRF40nUyKBzfT4DC?u=
sp=3Dsharing
> >> > >>> It's EC3closedloop.zip.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> You may want to grab it now in case Google decides to close =
my account :)
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> You can program the 18F452 chips directly using the =
EC3CL8.HEX file, or open EC3ClosedLoop.mcp in MPLAB IDE, compile and =
program. This is for RX-8 (EC3 engine type A8), LS2 coils (D585), large =
secondary injectors, default is wide band O2 sensor.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Turns out Tracy has never programmed or delivered an EC3 for =
Renesis with LS2 coils.
> >> > >>> Software was missing code to load LS2 coils dwell time.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> I added Steve's code for configuration bits so don't have to =
remember what to set them to when programming.
> >> > >>> I set all protection bits to zero to avoid any chip =
reprogramming troubles, but you could change to:
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> ; CONFIG6L
> >> > >>> CONFIG WRT0 =3D ON ; Write Protection bit (Block 0 =
(000200-001FFFh) write protected)
> >> > >>> Finn
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> ENG EQU 0xA8 ;PUT ENGINE TYPE CODE HERE AND CHECK **** ALL =
**** FLAGS BELOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=20
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> N109TC EQU 0x00 ;N109TC USES A DIFFERENT assignment of coil =
drivers CLEAR for ALL except N109TC !!!!! and KERMIT unit 20B =
controllers
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> DIAG EQU 0x00 ;DIAG =3D=3D1 ALLOWS DIAGNOSTIC USE OF 02H&L
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> ; ***************** CHECK ALL FLAGS BEFORE PROGRAM MING CHIPS =
!!!!! **************************************************
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> ; *************** DWELL TIME FLAGS *SET ONLY ONE* =
***********************************************
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> RX8COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 2.6MS DWELL TIME (RX-8 COIL)
> >> > >>> RX7COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 3.5MS DWELL TIME USED (also used for =
A7 2007 option)=20
> >> > >>> LS1COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 4.3 MS DWELL USED=20
> >> > >>> HONDACOIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 1.7 MS DWELL (A REALLY TINY COIL)
> >> > >>> LS2COIL EQU 0x01 ;1=3D 4.0 MS DWELL=20
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> TURBO EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NA, 1 =3D TURBO VERSION (BIT 0 SET IN =
ECINFO IF TRUE)
> >> > >>> BFACTOR EQU D'20' ;BOOST RETARD FOR IGNITION TIMING lower =
value =3D more boost retard (25 IS USED FOR MOST ROTARY 20 on 03-05-09,
> >> > >>> LGSEC EQU 0x01 ;0 =3D PRI & SEC INJECTORS SAME SIZE 1 =3D =
LARGER SECONDARY INJECTORS (RENESIS 4 port)
> >> > >>> WIDEBAND EQU 0x01 ;0 =3D NARROWBAND O2 SENSOR IN USE, 1 =3D =
WIDEBAND SENSOR IN USE.
> >> > >>> TEMPSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D THERMISTOR, 1 =3D LM34
> >> > >>> MAPSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D MPX4250 SENSOR, 1 =3D MPX4115 =
(EARLIER VERSION OF EC2 ONLY)
> >> > >>> BUSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NO BACKUP SENSOR, 1 =3D BACKUP =
INSTALLED (0xA8,0xA9,AB,AD,B1,B2,B4 0-200 ENGINE ONLY)
> >> > >>> BREW EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D SET TO 1 FOR 3RD GEN 13BREW ENGINES : =
COMPENSATES FOR 5 DEG EARLIER 3RD GEN TIMING OF CAS
> >> > >>> ONEINJ EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NORMAL 2 INJECTOR PER ROTOR 1 =3D 1 =
INJ PER ROTOR (NOT RECOMMENDED)
> >> > >>> CONT EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NORMAL 0xA9 ENGINE, 1 =3D =
CONTINENTAL/Lyc VARIENT (also sets bu at 18 geg before primary)
> >> > >>> EMT EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D A9 W/ TRIG @ 6 DEG ATDC 1 =3D TDC @ TOOTH =
11 (ELECTROMOTIVE TIMING SPEC) also sets BU at 180 deg
> >> > >>> A72007 EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D PRE 2005 SUBE EJ25 1 =3D 2005 OR LATER =
EJ25 W/ RX-8 TYPE CAS=20
> >> > >>> WTF EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D normal version 1 =3D BRAT - AKA - =
WhatTheFuck project version with transmission control functions=20
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> TBINJ EQU 0x00 ;1=3D THROTTLE BODY INJECTION FLAG=20
> >> > >>> LS2_60_2 EQU 0x00 ;1=3D LS2 ENGINE EQUIPPED W/60-2 TOOTH =
TRIGGER WHEEL (USE ENG CODE 0xAB)
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> Disclaimer
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> The information contained in this communication from the =
sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient =
and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you =
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking =
action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly =
prohibited and may be unlawful.
> >> > >>>=20
> >> > >>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may =
have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in =
Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and more =
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> >> > >>>=20
> >> >=20
> >> >=20
> >> > --
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http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> --
> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
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>=20
>=20
> --
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