X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=WN13m7Tuer6iM28RYnw0tQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=6KCspYaHAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=VXAf0v94B6ZCk1Y0bZ8A:9 a=9cKX7PZpmteJVSKn:21 a=IehqHbIzvp3tB6fl:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=jh0fsEC-sFLBYvFA5TQA:9 a=1TJucyr2xEgKLnW_:21 a=r6cf2n8AEiw6J1HV:21 a=LtBTt23JDA_pgrnm:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=CnniZz1SSAwyvaD4Xt4M:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-il1-f169.google.com ([209.85.166.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 395581 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 09:53:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.169; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-il1-f169.google.com with SMTP id x18so11937646ilp.1 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:53:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=smc+B8sUE7+L1t2Soz0PYOXg0KYjT/To4W0BYYh0ggU=; b=nE0axb4aRlnj+Duey7l3Vn5AEGJQuUNsQ4P3I0B0itiFg13NUKa5njCL559mQsVDvU P5+Sy472Ot7pA/CmV9j2sX9/XLqnJKW5y9QyKBxerBg39RpG4dCyz35nOhRnbBGHE6fc 6tASW6LpGhxp/Mufln3zPRtZpXIS6Glg3DnrEH4QLrdCQRDMQ/FYCZ6wIVIppcFBZ9k6 JOrJTYP+YBMPJnZixc6pS93SBgH9e0kjklQKF8YBdRc7ZkAtvva67+nNyNcqKi320aNw 2nWFCi+Q+lOR0YtDRPJ98GNl2KfQue4GbnT9N70YjzcNKIVxyqcafuAyNMo3OaPZNBP+ K/+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=smc+B8sUE7+L1t2Soz0PYOXg0KYjT/To4W0BYYh0ggU=; b=sytv4v731sUaF/kzYe36YDdrJXNOdqCTgrNs3PhxgZcwKNzMVn0gJ4OSkGPVvlI/J+ 4L7RVZj2uyKkgfUDq5Z4FNuH5eBkRIqJwMFI1egV8abQlauaMOy1nJ281iqsX9TVgl3g M09UwhnX8J0gaTgmTEHsb3zFJn2V6RZAFusyy/8S928/6yC03jiVTw8lvuX0xomwhRuW ZSJ+6o70ROKz0DiytLd7gdZUfY9MATTWNeDueljF/qSETjiTIz1v1OLO7xepBzQNYZ2V FXBB7LuVfyjjbSxbdMKUW8qTGju9B2heIVGDyrcRPfCWgOanC349vzlwfiV3qTJgFdk1 CQsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530sbv7lcSxiknb3Ju3m2RFTfBW2ULFJ3yOA28ISEe9GDYeHraZF tkYHH6NMTMeVhcLJgE4FY6RX/xoraWXzT4s7g00phA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwBm72QXqvtc3SAIvRmiWJv7ZPXLNxIkop4CPI4szCcz2XgiR70OpUOskxWeTJjhIfsbJJh5cXLnN3ZIFk8lIs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:dc5:: with SMTP id l5mr8108669ilj.216.1592661207261; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:53:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 08:46:41 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Modifying the EC2 Staging point To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000081a50c05a88455ef" --00000000000081a50c05a88455ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd agree that .44 is wildly optimistic when looking at full power BSFC. In the Lycoming world, .45 is about as good as it gets *at cruise power settings* if you're running a carb'd engine (usually worse, since most are afraid to lean Lycs aggressively). At 75% power, with fuel injection and balanced flow to the cylinders, you can get a Lyc down in the .42 range, and slightly better than that if you're up high, using electronic ignition that can be advanced, and running at much lower power (under 60%). At full power, a Lyc will be somewhere between .55 & .60. I'd agree with Steve that .55 is about as good as you'll get in a rotary at full power (likely not that good, since we all have butchered Mazda's intake & exhaust technology ;-) ). With a 'known' engine setup, you can back into HP using Steve I's calculation. But since every rotary has a different intake/exhaust/tune, that makes it a bit tougher to trust, except as a 'ball park' number. With a controllable prop on the a/c, the best way to use the a/c as a dyno is to compare your performance to a Lyc powered model, in climb from near sea level, at the same weight. If the kit mfgr is reputable, they will publish accurate climb numbers for the a/c with a c/s prop, at specified HP, and at gross weight. If you're hitting their climb number, at their weight, you're making very close to the same HP. This is likely to be more accurate than a speed run, since airframe building variations, and even more significantly, *cooling drag* variations, have much larger effects at top speed than at best climb rate speeds. (Interesting to see so much weight variation in gasoline, from blend to blend. USA E-mogas is very close to US avgas in weight. Seeing almost a half pound of difference between AU avgas & AU premium mogas is wild.) Charlie On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 1:46 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Hi there Le Roux. > > I thought the BSFC would more realistically be around 0.55 for best power > in the Renesis with 10:1 compression. > We burn PULP 95 unleaded. > So calculated might be in the ball park of - hp =3D 16.4 x 6.2 / 0.55 =3D > 185hp at 6800 static > As the rpm rises on takeoff I would expect the hp to rise with rpm until > the torque curve dives faster than the RPM rise. > > What numbers are others seeing and how do they compare with Lycoming > powered RV=E2=80=99s etc. > > > These are the numbers I got of the web for fuel weight (so not confirmed)= . > AU PULP 6.26 lb.gal Premium 95 Unleaded here in Western Aust > AU ULP 6.13 Standard 92 Unleaded here in > Western Aust > AU Avgas 5.84 > US Avgas 6.01 > > Cheers > > Steve Izett > > > On 20 Jun 2020, at 2:01 pm, Le Roux Breytenbach > breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BF > > Steve: From what i have read, you could use this formula to calculate > horsepower ( or more or less) > > > > > https://performancedevelopments.com/fuel-flow-calculations-for-horsepower= / > > > > HP =3D (GPH) x 5.92 / 0.44 (BSFC) > > > > 16,4 (GPH) x 5.92 ( weight of 1 pound of fuel ) > > devide by > > 0,44 Brake Specific Fuel Consumption BSFC. > > > > =3D 220 Hp > > > > I could be wrong > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > Le Roux Breytenbach > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > Le Roux Breytenbach > >> On 20 Jun 2020, at 04:49, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFThanks Jeff and all > >> > >> Last flight (after playing around with Mode #1 tuning on the ground) > the Primaries (4 port Red) were saturating at various times, indicated as > Steve Boese reminded me, by the loss of RPM readouts (EM3 & Dynon Skyview= ) > sensed from the Primary Injector line. > >> Do others with small Primaries have this issue or is it a Tuning issue= ? > >> ie. Getting modes # 3,6,2 right will spread the load between the Pri > and Secondaries so the primaries don=E2=80=99t saturate? > >> I do have another set of the larger (Blue) secondary injectors that > could replace the small red Primaries giving us 4 equal injectors, if thi= s > was helpful. > >> Do injectors have a sweet spot or better spray pattern at a particular > band of duty cycle? > >> > >> We have an electric inflight adjustable prop which may make a > difference from those with experience with FP props. > >> > >> On another note, I rechecked max fuel flow at static ~6800 rpm and 0.9= 2 > Lambda which I think is best power. Fuel Flow peeks at 16.4 Gal/hr. > >> It's a Renesis 4 Port with the stock exhaust header and resonator and = a > modified stock intake manifold which is basically shortened from 23.6=E2= =80=9D to > 18.1=E2=80=9D. > >> I had noted down that Tracy recommended 16=E2=80=9D and Paul L 20=E2= =80=9D for the > intake length. > >> What kind of hp do you think this might be producing and what are > others seeing? > >> > >> How could we determine peak power/rpm? Could we use the airframe as a > dyno in some way? > >> What about at WOT clean air and level, and adjust prop pitch/rpm for > maximum airspeed. > >> I suppose is we kept the mixture constant we could look for highest > fuel flow. > >> I=E2=80=99m trying ti ascertain the best rpm for takeoff. > >> At the moment I=E2=80=99m leaving the prop set fine and rpm is peaking= at ~7500 > on climb out. > >> > >> Your expertise and insights would be greatly appreciated. > >> > >> Steve Izett > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 19 Jun 2020, at 9:37 pm, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> I don't think you're missing anything Steve - my EC2 is the same : > fixed at 20" ... > >>> It was originally 15.5" and could be set anywhere ... but after sent > back to Tracy it is now 20" and cannot be changed. > >>> Jeff > >>> > >>> Hi people. > >>> > >>> I did some tuning this morning. > >>> But I couldn't get the staging point to change. > >>> > >>> I reset all modes to default. > >>> The built in default Stage Point on my EC2 seems to be ~20" > >>> > >>> Ran engine at the desired MAP, selected Mode #7 (I was aiming at > 15.5") and pressed the Store Button. > >>> I also tried holding it for a few seconds. > >>> Staging Point stayed at ~20". > >>> What am I missing here? > >>> > >>> Steve Izett > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> --00000000000081a50c05a88455ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd agree that .44 is wildly optimistic when looking at f= ull power BSFC. In the Lycoming world, .45 is about as good as it gets *at = cruise power settings* if you're running a carb'd engine (usually w= orse, since most are afraid to lean Lycs aggressively).
At 75% power, with fuel injection = and balanced flow to the cylinders, you can get a Lyc down in the .42 range= , and slightly better than that if you're up high, using electronic=C2= =A0ignition that can be advanced, and running=C2=A0at much lower power=C2= =A0 (under 60%). At full power, a Lyc will be somewhere between .55 & .= 60. I'd agree with Steve that .55 is about as good as you'll get in= a rotary at full power (likely not that good, since we all have butchered = Mazda's intake & exhaust technology ;-)=C2=A0 ).

With a 'known' engine setup, you ca= n back into HP using Steve I's calculation. But since every rotary has = a different intake/exhaust/tune, that makes it a bit tougher to trust, exce= pt as a 'ball park' number. With a controllable prop on the a/c, th= e best way to use the a/c as a dyno is to compare your performance to a Lyc= powered model, in climb from near sea level, at the same weight. If the ki= t mfgr is reputable, they will publish accurate climb numbers for the a/c w= ith a c/s prop, at specified HP, and at gross weight. If you're hitting= their climb number, at their weight, you're making very close to the s= ame HP. This is likely to be more accurate than a speed run, since airframe= building variations, and even more significantly, *cooling drag* variation= s, have much larger effects at top speed than at best climb rate speeds.

(Interesting to see so much= weight variation in gasoline, from blend to blend. USA E-mogas=C2=A0is ver= y close to US avgas in weight. Seeing almost a half pound of difference bet= ween AU avgas & AU premium mogas is wild.)

Charlie

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 1:46 AM Stephen = Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:
Hi there Le Roux.

I thought the BSFC would more realistically be around 0.55 for best power i= n the Renesis with 10:1 compression.
We burn PULP 95 unleaded.
So calculated might be in the ball park of - hp =3D 16.4 x 6.2 / 0.55 =3D 1= 85hp at 6800 static
As the rpm rises on takeoff I would expect the hp to rise with rpm until th= e torque curve dives faster than the RPM rise.

What numbers are others seeing and how do they compare with Lycoming powere= d RV=E2=80=99s etc.


These are the numbers I got of the web for fuel weight (so not confirmed).<= br> AU PULP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06.26=C2=A0 =C2=A0 lb.gal=C2=A0 Pre= mium 95 Unleaded here in Western Aust
AU ULP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.13=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Standard 92 Unleaded here in West= ern Aust
AU Avgas=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5.84
US Avgas=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.01

Cheers

Steve Izett

> On 20 Jun 2020, at 2:01 pm, Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com = <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
> Steve: From what=C2=A0 i have read, you could use this formula to calc= ulate horsepower ( or more or less)
>
> https://performancede= velopments.com/fuel-flow-calculations-for-horsepower/
>
> HP =3D (GPH) x 5.92 / 0.44 (BSFC)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16,4 (GPH)=C2=A0 x 5.92 ( weight of 1 pound= of fuel )
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 devide by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0,44=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brake Specific Fuel= Consumption BSFC.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D=C2=A0 220 Hp
>
> I could be wrong
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Le Roux Breytenbach
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Le Roux Breytenbach
>> On 20 Jun 2020, at 04:49, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFThanks Jeff and all
>>
>> Last flight (after playing around with Mode #1 tuning on the groun= d) the Primaries (4 port Red) were saturating at various times, indicated a= s Steve Boese reminded me, by the loss of RPM readouts (EM3 & Dynon Sky= view) sensed from the Primary Injector line.
>> Do others with small Primaries have this issue or is it a Tuning i= ssue?
>> ie. Getting modes # 3,6,2 right will spread the load between the P= ri and Secondaries so the primaries don=E2=80=99t saturate?
>> I do have another set of the larger (Blue) secondary injectors tha= t could replace the small red Primaries giving us 4 equal injectors, if thi= s was helpful.
>> Do injectors have a sweet spot or better spray pattern at a partic= ular band of duty cycle?
>>
>> We have an electric inflight adjustable prop which may make a diff= erence from those with experience with FP props.
>>
>> On another note, I rechecked max fuel flow at static ~6800 rpm and= 0.92 Lambda which I think is best power. Fuel Flow peeks at 16.4 Gal/hr. >> It's a Renesis 4 Port with the stock exhaust header and resona= tor and a modified stock intake manifold which is basically shortened from = 23.6=E2=80=9D to 18.1=E2=80=9D.
>> I had noted down that Tracy recommended 16=E2=80=9D and Paul L 20= =E2=80=9D=C2=A0 for the intake length.
>> What kind of hp do you think this might be producing and what are = others seeing?
>>
>> How could we determine peak power/rpm? Could we use the airframe a= s a dyno in some way?
>> What about at WOT clean air and level, and adjust prop pitch/rpm f= or maximum airspeed.
>> I suppose is we kept the mixture constant we could look for highes= t fuel flow.
>> I=E2=80=99m trying ti ascertain the best rpm for takeoff.
>> At the moment I=E2=80=99m leaving the prop set fine and rpm is pea= king at ~7500 on climb out.
>>
>> Your expertise and insights would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Steve Izett
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 19 Jun 2020, at 9:37 pm, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think you're missing anything Steve - my EC2 i= s the same : fixed at 20" ...
>>> It was originally 15.5" and could be set anywhere ... but= after sent back to Tracy it is now 20" and cannot be changed.
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Hi people.
>>>
>>> I did some tuning this morning.
>>> But I couldn't get the staging point to change.
>>>
>>> I reset all modes to default.
>>> The built in default Stage Point on my EC2 seems to be ~20&quo= t;
>>>
>>> Ran engine at the desired MAP, selected Mode #7=C2=A0 (I was a= iming at 15.5") and pressed the Store Button.
>>> I also tried holding it for a few seconds.
>>> Staging Point stayed at ~20".
>>> What am I missing here?
>>>
>>> Steve Izett
>>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>
>>
>> --
>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0ht= tp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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