X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xh+fAHEUOhwjonyMPiijzg==:117 a=Q/ga6ogm2rCWgcvzDGMIiA==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DDNF8ybvv5wA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=2NH-TaPl73dHKicFjkMA:9 a=YoSR0S1eXcEXszuc:21 a=LrpSs7nDc7s9GaEX:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=OJAZQCPpPQ8A:10 a=_wv7eb16ZPDku0lm03cA:9 a=jcTM_svlYhC4Qldq:21 a=Y056K0vbgFuMvmnj:21 a=IqwOv4tK8xd6Zgv7:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ej1-f53.google.com ([209.85.218.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 359068 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:25:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.53; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ej1-f53.google.com with SMTP id x1so7627025ejd.8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:25:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=4h5+06IjvM/RU37aw6CDuUfTGEyvPwrDaiqC7E7UNKo=; b=tbW//uLdSwCEZNU3EG+HomJlYmxn1x5FxQmrFAkmhrNQkyt+XejEQiJ77I3y02nNe+ ciXIUKIjUwy7ZxZ2JmWo8y3/xahK+42SCPsfShO3ebVfBdBYyQVbkGs6kCcR0NCJWE75 Uh6WSC4CXE74CMdegxiGjfnBtfQmiPWHi5tKK6vgqyj/EEGrR6nLZ2cNAnq2u9C5WpNi GCSXAmmNhADrlYH2/E7tOQ7DxLdhW2umZpKzptB7JgXyISOHGJ4zjyzjHGKFg/9T21Oc vnhvyu7ru5w3XIQyJAA+8hfvOLf4ckTvtbVsh/ZlwZB3PvnmPV1LFkgKYScr+t6VtlLJ Hbbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=4h5+06IjvM/RU37aw6CDuUfTGEyvPwrDaiqC7E7UNKo=; b=GgsoMFVhrUOL8iXEw2nxTOUn5uSXbLtqgawDy8N5T9RgTs7RRy6iv6t6L9nycm9bpe 4S6HjRjda7WBVKpOdAEED5zTO/O985QJoP+ebcwFoqTbDVMqDm2foS71mYzKg8GqJ1cj ZENLrqXztadyk2ZKyCYNhwvSSWpJdeLhhOvsQrHf7CtRu9xypgJzpYjMPOQ708eiZD2u /B9nSxp2W5UQFgTT8raaZt52x9wbHSeBwIbKIJmIeLiEPOyawTK9ewYdVytoWIcmIXQs kwFyFxJMQz2jsfHxA6ftYR4M8D1ANSOiv2Kxt2DhK9bfYKCYuWolCUcbDeiCpkS1lxA4 5Ykg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300B8xfaXAKHVNuhopc/KPr72smb4JrRwvLaYGbslYuE3cXrE31 saxlV1fIjhFJBsTTs5VTcb7ukyAtXZY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwnJhBdELRpQCWzLeFNUM9+/N1GEfnwMZmMk5W2HXstINgIm67BRo0dTE6ZpBHHDeTNu9FNJw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:17c1:: with SMTP id u1mr10277725eje.47.1591903482399; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.122] ([160.226.128.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h10sm2308057ejb.2.2020.06.11.12.24.40 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5C6657F6-D327-4FBD-B07A-E7A66F8758B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Pump Message-Id: <40EE50F9-7A42-4C5F-A6E3-2E10D46D60D8@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 21:24:37 +0200 To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) --Apple-Mail-5C6657F6-D327-4FBD-B07A-E7A66F8758B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF =EF=BB=BFLynn: Well said, can see this is years of experience, in the rotary= community. as Enzo Ferrari said: =E2=80=9CAerodynamics is for people who can=E2=80=99t build engines.=E2=80=9D= surely Felix Wankel understood that! Le Roux Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 >> On 11 Jun 2020, at 19:01, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > Not exactly. The radiator is surly a big restriction to flow. In a case wh= ere the water pump can force a bit too much water through the radiator per s= econd, then the problem arises. The pump establishes a differential pressure= in the system so that flow will occur. So, the pressure side of the pump pr= oduces higher pressure, and the suction side produces a lower pressure. So l= ong as the low pressure side combined with a high enough pressure stays belo= w the boiling point of water (or coolant) there is no problem. In high schoo= l we pulled a vacuum on a jug half full of water. Plugged up the inlet of th= e jug. Now put your hand on the side of the jug......the water boils where e= ver you touch the jug. But how is this possible says the teacher??? Water b= oils at 100C or 212F.......The answer is that both pressure and temperature d= etermine the boiling point of water. > So, that 100C or 212F is only good at sea level............or 14.7 PSI An= d nowhere else.......So how much heat must I add, or how much pressure must I= remove to get boiling on the inlet side of my pump? =20 > Why, not much at all. >=20 > If you are already at 190 degrees some people think 200 degrees is not out= landish.....Just put your hand on the jug......and Presto....boiling. It is= difficult to come up with a new way to destroy a rotary engine. There are s= ome who seem to be working on just that. Years ago we raced a RX-2 with a ju= nk engine in it. The driver was doing well following a Corvette. A misplace e= nd wrench fell out of the Corvette and went through out radiator. > The coolant blew out in a lap. The driver (ODed on brain chemicals) did no= t notice the pegged temp gage and later the no temp on the same gage. Finish= ed the race (about 20 miles at full throttle). Came into the pits and turned= off the engine...........no good. Engine is white hot. Running on glow plug= s (what was left of the spark plug tips) I had him hold the brakes and declu= tch in 4th gear. Engine stopped....and screeched and whistled > and moaned for about 15 minutes............ The pulleys the crank and plug= wires were OK....nothing else. >=20 > So, a legally dead rotary may be better than a badly hurt Lycoming. when t= he power goes away, airspeed, hit nearest. leave on full throttle, announce y= our intentions, fly the plane. You got the engine from a junk yard. > You are renting the plane from an insurance company.Only you cannot be rep= laced with a phone call....................... >=20 > So. water make up bottle as in RX-2 RX-3 RX-4. Stant (lever) pressure cap 2= 2 to 26 pounds. 10% glycol > in distilled water. 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dishwashing detergent. Change coo= lant often and insides will be clean and less difficult to cool. Oil coolers= should be way too big with too much air supply. >=20 > The engines are about 28% efficient. So the rest of all of those BTUs mus= t be removed by your cooling systems. (and the exhaust system). >=20 > There may be no truth at all in the above and below information. My guess= is as good as yours. > LEH >=20 > In a message dated 6/11/2020 7:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net writes: >=20 > Thanks for that. Great information! >=20 > So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not adequate, in s= ome circumstances, to avoid cavitation. >=20 > I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prior an= d superior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation? >=20 > Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the advisably of usi= ng an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or successful, do these need a re= stricter or is one built into the unit or they, as was expressed by the late= Paul, totally worthless? >=20 > Rich >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: >=20 > Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a tiny imperfection in t= he face of the impeller would be the start of each event. It could be a sand= blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining......Note that impelle= rs are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at all. So many variati= ons in shape and surface finish......or" as cast" as you may have seen on m= any drawings. This is because almost any shape at all would work well as an= impeller in a pressurized system. It looks like hell because it doesn't mat= ter what it looks like. Works just fine in a car...........Pumps for more cr= itical installations have impellers that are 100% machined and polished. Eve= n a stamped steel impeller is a big step up in performance and reliability d= ue to a more uniform shape. More modern pumps have smaller yet better perfor= ming impellers due to the interest in fuel mileage. More fluid flow for lowe= r power input. >=20 > I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on the outlet to the radiator. At first I= made a restricter mounted where the=20 > the normal thermostat would have been. Years later I built it into the Nor= ice or, the aluminum water outlet > to the radiator. I never had a cooling problem in 30 years of racing. But I= also know that more than 1/3 of the total cooling load is in the oil. I coo= led the oil and the water stayed below 180 degrees. I used three 44 row Setr= ab oil coolers. Your results may vary...............LEH >=20 > In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: >=20 > OK, but then why just one blade? >=20 > Finn >=20 > On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: > All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race car, so there is not= hing to look at. So...this will be a guess. >=20 > 12-A before 74. >=20 > A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kept removing bolts fr= om anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally means older piece. >=20 > Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump output outrun the suct= ion side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a restricter elimina= tes this kind of damage. If you have seen a water jet cut through a 1/2" st= eel plate you might think this could happen on one long test flight.........= .......... >=20 > LEH =20 >=20 > In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: >=20 > Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A? > Lynn Hanover is on this list and would be able to answer anything about 12= A's ... maybe reach out to him directly in the subject line?? > Jeff >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Whaley > Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump >=20 > Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 13B ... Jeff >=20 >=20 > All, > =20 > Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The one in the top of t= he photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obviously incorrect. I= t's the second one we've ordered. > The first one that I ordered looked identical to my original one. However= , when it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smaller than mine. When I or= dered this second one we all (Carquest employees) poured over the pictures t= o make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had one less bolt hole than t= he one in their pictures. > I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and where a guy can o= rder one >=20 > Thanks, > Ryan >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --Apple-Mail-5C6657F6-D327-4FBD-B07A-E7A66F8758B4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BF
=EF=BB= =BFLynn: Well said, can see this is years of experience, in the rotary commu= nity.
as Enzo Ferrari said:
=E2=80= =9CAerodynamics is for people who can=E2=80=99t build engines.=E2=80=9D
surely Felix Wankel understood that!

Le Roux



Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbac= h 

On 11 Jun 2= 020, at 19:01, lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Not exactly. The radiator is surly a big restriction to= flow. In a case where the water pump can force a bit too much water through= the radiator per second, then the problem arises. The pump establishes a di= fferential pressure in the system so that flow will occur. So, the pressure s= ide of the pump produces higher pressure, and the suction side produces a lo= wer pressure. So long as the low pressure side combined with a high enough p= ressure stays below the boiling point of water (or coolant) there is no prob= lem. In high school we pulled a vacuum on a jug half full of water. Plugged u= p the inlet of the jug. Now put your hand on the side of the jug......the wa= ter boils where ever you touch the jug.  But how is this possible says t= he teacher??? Water boils at 100C or 212F.......The answer is that both pres= sure and temperature determine the boiling point of water.
So, that 100C or 212F is only good at sea level........= ....or 14.7 PSI  And nowhere else.......So how much heat must I add, or= how much pressure must I remove to get boiling on the inlet side of my pump= ? 
Why, not much at all.

If you are already at 190 degrees some people think 200= degrees is not outlandish.....Just put your hand on the jug......and Presto= ....boiling.  It is difficult to come up with a new way to destroy a ro= tary engine.  There are some who seem to be working on just that. Years= ago we raced a RX-2 with a junk engine in it. The driver was doing well fol= lowing a Corvette. A misplace end wrench fell out of the Corvette and went t= hrough out radiator.
The coolant blew out in a lap. The driver (ODed on brai= n chemicals) did not notice the pegged temp gage and later the no temp on th= e same gage. Finished the race (about 20 miles at full throttle). Came into t= he pits and turned off the engine...........no good. Engine is white hot. Ru= nning on glow plugs (what was left of the spark plug tips) I had him hold th= e brakes and declutch in 4th gear. Engine stopped....and screeched and whist= led
and moaned for about 15 minutes............ The pulleys= the crank and plug wires were OK....nothing else.

So, a legally dead rotary may be better than a badly hu= rt Lycoming. when the power goes away, airspeed, hit nearest. leave on full t= hrottle, announce your intentions, fly the plane. You got the engine from a j= unk yard.
You are renting the plane from an insurance company.Onl= y you cannot be replaced with a phone call.......................

So. water make up bottle as in RX-2 RX-3 RX-4. Stant (l= ever) pressure cap 22 to 26 pounds. 10% glycol
in distilled water. 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dishwashing de= tergent. Change coolant often and insides will be clean and less difficult t= o cool. Oil coolers should be way too big with too much air supply.

The engines are about 28% efficient.  So the rest o= f all of those BTUs must be removed by your cooling systems. (and the exhaus= t system).

There may be no truth at all in the above and below inf= ormation.  My guess is as good as yours.
LEH

In a message dated 6/11/2020 7:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes:

Thanks for that. Great information!

So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not adequate, i= n some circumstances, to avoid cavitation.

I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prior= and superior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation?

Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the advisably of u= sing an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or  successful, do these ne= ed a restricter or is one built into the unit or they, as was expressed by t= he late Paul, totally worthless?

Rich

Sent from my iPhone<= /div>

On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanover= @aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a ti= ny imperfection in the face of the impeller would be the start of each event= . It could be a sand blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining...= ...Note that impellers are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at a= ll. So many variations in shape and surface finish......or" as cast"  a= s you may have seen on many drawings.  This is because a= lmost any shape at all would work well as an impeller in a pressurized syste= m. It looks like hell because it doesn't matter what it looks like. Works ju= st fine in a car...........Pumps for more critical installations have impell= ers that are 100% machined and polished. Even a stamped steel impeller is a b= ig step up in performance and reliability due to a more uniform shape. More m= odern pumps have smaller yet better performing impellers due to the interest= in fuel mileage. More fluid flow for lower power input.

I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on th= e outlet to the radiator. At first I made a restricter mounted where the&nbs= p;
the normal thermostat would have been. Y= ears later I built it into the Norice or, the aluminum water outlet
to the radiator. I never had a cooling p= roblem in 30 years of racing. But I also know that more than 1/3 of the tota= l cooling load is in the oil. I cooled the oil and the water stayed below 18= 0 degrees. I used three 44 row Setrab oil coolers. Your results may vary....= ...........LEH

In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

OK, but then why just one blade?=

Finn

On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote:
All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race ca= r,  so there is nothing to look at. So...this will be a guess.

12-A before 74.

A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kep= t removing bolts from anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally&nbs= p; means older piece.

Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump out= put outrun the suction side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a= restricter eliminates this kind of damage.  If you have seen a water j= et cut through a 1/2" steel plate you might think this could happen on one l= ong test flight...................

LEH     

In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et writes:

Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A?
Lynn Hanover is on this list and would be able to answer an= ything about 12A's ... maybe reach out to him directly in the subject line??=
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Whaley
Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump

Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 13= B ...  Jeff


All,
 
Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The one= in the top of the photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obviou= sly incorrect. It's the second one we've ordered.
The first one that I ordered looked identical to my origina= l one.  However, when it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smaller t= han mine. When I ordered this second one we all (Carquest employees) poured o= ver the pictures to make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had one les= s bolt hole than the one in their pictures.
I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and w= here a guy can order one

Thanks,
Ryan

--
=


= --Apple-Mail-5C6657F6-D327-4FBD-B07A-E7A66F8758B4--