X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SHIHjpXcmtysUAvfum2vSQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=e8BSqymJ620A:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=XCnkGLEC4lIA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=taoe6KJ34DX85GZmfwgA:9 a=OROy2HyzakoSPM1W:21 a=-YLuXu5Pb9i3OWvH:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=OJAZQCPpPQ8A:10 a=v-_MI7z8dh_GcN7iAMEA:9 a=HTCytCb5dVFtBrrQ:21 a=Io8FtAdAX7wHlBus:21 a=Nd8PkP0dwsTQa7WP:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "A R Goldman argoldman@aol.com" Received: from sonic315-54.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.137.65.30] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 356710 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:29:58 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.137.65.30; envelope-from=argoldman@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1591874980; bh=tT/28wD+SsS+zevMDhaUR3SOt1kXty/jZ82xc6oj2Uw=; h=From:Date:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:To:From:Subject; b=Ed5UnvaOIMfDpIdoQ1lrAzjUcelXXSPlBk7kz3prkpBcfLV+DOKCUWjcAgKnoMn50XShKAaWPeQc6yPHla3K++fsssAJ1k0fn7FTiNfVf4/HKFJz6VrpTCmI3NHa+u0PK4QV97ILq30S2km1vCDprdVl2H+z5oq0gF/c/qbJ146Jv4XvxmUPbFWkZx+LkSJaXAI1qcNu2TucbLhtIG9+T4q5YsSjmpO9RU4adr7ioB6+A7CIhg2T+B7YH6On9MOS2YNEki8rGn6rw1fZpvaBVTedrhgtdR09QR/BaL5kZ2P79LIT303Pgz3yMSa4MdUJhAU8eaOqCIY9rDG7x9WFNw== X-YMail-OSG: lLbKCpEVM1lQScDtvcXKTySHkKGd5BErEcu5Kk7f17RJ2hoMmg08TbYx0mZlWu4 VJesc5diZMLWMTSVXeZKoiU6_EO1vmoT4wPZHKElvcAJPXvBCHGv.w5LB8M9r1SN2kggMJqTxtOM pJMsd6.CCt8my_AyH9o97k16nX_wLxP98C6Gw_HjUr.Ujw3pbHvplvLDG.s7zUQNgpyXI1KIyblG e95wVVcFubpw_QCLy0Mn7pY0qQQk5jBR3DGExi1LA05hH58rKV0Y.lLQUL2FxoGIAgU9z1RjYLcO Dno63vr54jrq.PqQtKIpfMH1_EA7L4QfX2_Sx3oLiq5y4rlGagftl7LftcSP7VKJd7z6DLnsJJd1 mj0vDWWdsIuMguXXWXCnCiLIwgbaw_KEOa4VsLRVaLCYV3oHPikn8giuLAeW1zaojPxO7zDwmseL o48aymtPrgBqouoXHh3j5qvR5NKFnAhS_NHeyfO9XJ.sNHImjY_7eUMKsBlhQRa1RgI9qFPbFfZx wDd.ZrebQgzxDapGP_pV2e27qmqoJoFrHiKqhDJXR_NaWqzvpEMaFFQRgNMOSr88d_1HEKO4m5nt lKBQStFIFIjcU9sVTV2R6n_nmMX05f7tegD4.8IjwTyJ9AOaUMSyBlmDFZftuR9.0jfUbo1bcPPK PpS57iPjzBnsAEczQJTUwNoSsVNa4tBYAp.8SQE3L4f3GU5YOVHzRsTMVAYFdYoFi1wFOloz0VNE g6drTuIaDjUm.g_RxMq0qT_VTgqNJhm46oGdXF8tT1N.YNOgM55emM.CftJiYg.aIN0Nch9JRhee 5xme2y3wPFoNYIPq54rHpaXwnVwrFwbPoSKMaeuU4Zru1TjqbxvkC96JauYJov0Fe8LjF1UL6pl8 vSbMl5D1qhhavj9eH2hL3laXlAmybk34RxCRjvHwHK7PwC3ipOzgLGbAvrNMVY9vNQlDHT8qAe4u fYjS1ogeqRCdnEZKkwBjyzKnSgOoD3gjTZl5KT5sqOhDVUrNWvGxtpvuTdaSwqjJWUFYLW3EAZ_h dOskIWkxaH_B020_s19LrFgrcjSm9AOAu4msHqwGLs5cqIAjE08BxeBD5N00wAlFgIvAa0IBsf2r 8wATdz71QwVY1CYmQXUn1k6Ev1u5qGh89M0YvPhElLQmm1iI.wncJsFbsUujSFotK6gEitzoNpHd JbE285_xB9B5w8k.ACKCtc7vEWH4iOBl8knCInrkcCOqdTFgr.oBiI.Z_zvxYdXUbO3PDkxGyspT Ih1BDbN4xJXwaANbKb4X7ghsCzrq_oFJZA2yOces3ACRUqpcnoXtF23ECPGAVXnnYpPOSjnklWDZ WPmWmeAr88S4VDYElBfCFpJ13He_SyzzBi2sjCsPt Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:29:40 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3984fd22626cfa7dbfa97bd48a141d52; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:29:38 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BC2D97B0-D35B-4FD0-8BEF-73EAA5E52201 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:29:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Pump Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G183) Content-Length: 13194 --Apple-Mail-BC2D97B0-D35B-4FD0-8BEF-73EAA5E52201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for that. Great information! So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not adequate, in so= me circumstances, to avoid cavitation.=20 I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prior and s= uperior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation? Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the advisably of using= an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or successful, do these need a rest= rictor or is one built into the unit or they, as was expressed by the late P= aul, totally worthless? Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: >=20 > Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a tiny imperfection in t= he face of the impeller would be the start of each event. It could be a sand= blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining......Note that impelle= rs are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at all. So many variati= ons in shape and surface finish......or" as cast" as you may have seen on m= any drawings. This is because almost any shape at all would work well as an= impeller in a pressurized system. It looks like hell because it doesn't mat= ter what it looks like. Works just fine in a car...........Pumps for more cr= itical installations have impellers that are 100% machined and polished. Eve= n a stamped steel impeller is a big step up in performance and reliability d= ue to a more uniform shape. More modern pumps have smaller yet better perfor= ming impellers due to the interest in fuel mileage. More fluid flow for lowe= r power input. >=20 > I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on the outlet to the radiator. At first I= made a restricter mounted where the=20 > the normal thermostat would have been. Years later I built it into the Nor= ice or, the aluminum water outlet > to the radiator. I never had a cooling problem in 30 years of racing. But I= also know that more than 1/3 of the total cooling load is in the oil. I coo= led the oil and the water stayed below 180 degrees. I used three 44 row Setr= ab oil coolers. Your results may vary...............LEH >=20 > In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: >=20 > OK, but then why just one blade? >=20 > Finn >=20 > On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: > All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race car, so there is not= hing to look at. So...this will be a guess. >=20 > 12-A before 74. >=20 > A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kept removing bolts fr= om anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally means older piece. >=20 > Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump output outrun the suct= ion side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a restricter elimina= tes this kind of damage. If you have seen a water jet cut through a 1/2" st= eel plate you might think this could happen on one long test flight.........= .......... >=20 > LEH =20 >=20 > In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: >=20 > Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A? > Lynn Hanover is on this list and would be able to answer anything about 12= A's ... maybe reach out to him directly in the subject line?? > Jeff >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Whaley > Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump >=20 > Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 13B ... Jeff >=20 >=20 > All, > =20 > Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The one in the top of t= he photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obviously incorrect. I= t's the second one we've ordered. > The first one that I ordered looked identical to my original one. However= , when it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smaller than mine. When I or= dered this second one we all (Carquest employees) poured over the pictures t= o make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had one less bolt hole than t= he one in their pictures. > I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and where a guy can o= rder one >=20 > Thanks, > Ryan >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html >=20 --Apple-Mail-BC2D97B0-D35B-4FD0-8BEF-73EAA5E52201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for that. Great information!
So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not ade= quate, in some circumstances, to avoid cavitation. 

I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prio= r and superior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation?
<= div>
Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the= advisably of using an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or  successf= ul, do these need a restrictor or is one built into the unit or they, as was= expressed by the late Paul, totally worthless?

Ric= h

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a ti= ny imperfection in the face of the impeller would be the start of each event= . It could be a sand blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining...= ...Note that impellers are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at a= ll. So many variations in shape and surface finish......or" as cast"  a= s you may have seen on many drawings.  This is because a= lmost any shape at all would work well as an impeller in a pressurized syste= m. It looks like hell because it doesn't matter what it looks like. Works ju= st fine in a car...........Pumps for more critical installations have impell= ers that are 100% machined and polished. Even a stamped steel impeller is a b= ig step up in performance and reliability due to a more uniform shape. More m= odern pumps have smaller yet better performing impellers due to the interest= in fuel mileage. More fluid flow for lower power input.

I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on th= e outlet to the radiator. At first I made a restricter mounted where the&nbs= p;
the normal thermostat would have been. Y= ears later I built it into the Norice or, the aluminum water outlet
to the radiator. I never had a cooling p= roblem in 30 years of racing. But I also know that more than 1/3 of the tota= l cooling load is in the oil. I cooled the oil and the water stayed below 18= 0 degrees. I used three 44 row Setrab oil coolers. Your results may vary....= ...........LEH

In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

OK, but then why just one blade?=

Finn

On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote:
All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race ca= r,  so there is nothing to look at. So...this will be a guess.

12-A before 74.

A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kep= t removing bolts from anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally&nbs= p; means older piece.

Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump out= put outrun the suction side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a= restricter eliminates this kind of damage.  If you have seen a water j= et cut through a 1/2" steel plate you might think this could happen on one l= ong test flight...................

LEH     

In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et writes:

Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A?
Lynn Hanover is on this list and would be able to answer an= ything about 12A's ... maybe reach out to him directly in the subject line??=
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Whaley
Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump

Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 13= B ...  Jeff


All,
   
Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The one= in the top of the photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obviou= sly incorrect. It's the second one we've ordered.
The first one that I ordered looked identical to my origina= l one.  However, when it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smaller t= han mine. When I ordered this second one we all (Carquest employees) poured o= ver the pictures to make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had one les= s bolt hole than the one in their pictures.
I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and w= here a guy can order one

Thanks,
Ryan

--
=


= --Apple-Mail-BC2D97B0-D35B-4FD0-8BEF-73EAA5E52201--