From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not?
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:56:02 +0800
References: <list-336534@logan.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
In-Reply-To: <list-336534@logan.com>
Message-Id: <CBE7E785-47F5-4850-A9FF-6F932E5A9231@gmail.com>

Hi Todd

I have a narrowband O2 sensor into the EM3 and a Wideband O2 now into =
the EC2.
The Wideband signal also goes to the Dynon which has a custom  gauge =
with a digital output as well as the needle swing.
I agree, the Wideband is in the highly recommended and perhaps essential =
category.

And re the decent. YES!!!
I manually adjusted the mixture tables today, really for the first time, =
so will see what this looks like during our flight #12 tomorrow.
Ive kept the previous table in B computer.

Cheers

Steve


> On 5 Jun 2020, at 1:16 pm, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Steve;
>    Sounds like you have the same issue that I had, with your low MAP, =
high RPM table. These are for addresses 64-127.
>   Since we don't have to worry about shock cooling I prefer to always =
stay high then use a slip to make a steep approach but this results in =
low MAP, high RPM, which is not possible to duplicate on the ground =
while using autotune. So either you do this part manually or do a long =
descent from 12K or so while using autotune. I felt safer doing it on =
the ground.
>   This is where the PLX wide-band O2 display paid for itself. As soon =
as I'd chop the power and begin my approach it would start popping and =
farting even with the manual mixture control full left. I didn't believe =
it could really still be lean. I had made what I thought were large =
increases in the MAP table where I thought I should but it didn't help =
much. Once I got the wide-band display going with it's digital graph I =
could plainly see as soon as I chopped the power and began descending =
that the mixture would climb and go hi-off-scale at 20. I put a POV =
camera looking at the panel and I put the EM2 into track mode (button 1 =
& 2), so that I could record this while landing. I ended up moving some =
of these adresses right up to near the top of the range in order to get =
the mixture right.
> I would turn it on right now and have a look at the actual values for =
you, but I have the panel out of the plane right now as I'm making some =
other changes.
> When you say that you have both wide-band and narrow-band sensors, I =
assume that you mean just the sensor element which you are using to =
input to the EM2?
> As far as I know the EM2 was only ever able to use the 0-1volt signal =
of the narrow-band sensor. It wasn't until the EM3 that could accept the =
0-5volt signal from the wide-band. And the small bar indicator on the =
EM2 is tough to use for fine tuning. Using a dedicated unit such as the =
PLX (or any number of other brands) gives a seperate display with high =
resolution scrolling graph, numerical display and a simple ring of LEDs =
around the bezel. It also has a seperate 0-1volt or 0-5volt output that =
is input to the EM2 (intended as an input for vehicles that require =
this) to keep the EM2 display and allow for autotuning. As I said, I =
believe, but don't have definitive evidence, that the 0-1volt narrow =
band signal that it outputs is more stable than the one that was =
generated by the old narrow-band sensor. This made the autotune function =
better as a result.
>   I really believe that a standalone wide-band O2 display is an =
essential tuning tool. I originally just had the small display stuck at =
the edge of the panel with velcro, but last night I juggled around some =
other items and gave it a permanent home on my panel right below the EM2 =
display.
>=20
> Todd Bartrim
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:07 PM 12348ung@gmail.com =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> Finn,
>               Have kept out to date as I am computer illiterate as =
well as stupid.  Now  you are getting into my experience, rough running. =
 I spent many hours trying to get my engine to not miss at higher revs.  =
In the end it was mixture.  It was too rich of all things.  The rotary =
seems very sensitive to mixture.  My $0,02 cents worth.
> Neil.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20
> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:40 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not?
>=20
> I stand corrected.
>=20
> Got the washer/o-rings in the mail today. Installed in pump-assembly. =
No leaks (tested to the 38psi I set the pressure regulator to). Thanks =
to Bill for the tip on those kind of washers!
>=20
> Ran the engine again. Still no RPM readout. I have messed up the =
programming of the EM3 with all my changes. (I now have eight 2 volt =
channels, eight 5 volt channels, eight CHT, eight EGT plus battery =
voltage, MAP, RPM, Fuel Flow and MPG. Yes 36 channels output to data log =
USB stick every second or so.
>=20
> Engine still runs very rough. Can't keep it running.
> All four plugs firing. All injectors clicking.
> I guess the next step is to verify wiring from J2 to individual =
connectors.
> Not sure what to look for with a timing light (if I can get the engine =
to run long enough to use it).
> How do I find TDC on the stock Renesis timing wheel?
>=20
> Finn
>=20
> On 6/4/2020 7:23 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi Finn and all.
> >
> > As the years have gone by its hard to remember various things but:
> > 1. The EC2  .asm file (Actual EC2 Controller code - for non coders)=20=

> > that I think I reprogrammed my EC2 with years ago is called =
EC2CL8.asm The CL is a hint me thinks.
> > 2. I have a recollection that I had the mode#1 autotune function =
(not the original EM3 capability) working years ago ie. manually causing =
mixture rich, and EC would trim it back.
> >
> > I=E2=80=99m headed for the hangar this morning so I=E2=80=99ll:
> > 1. First I=E2=80=99ll try using mode#5 to change the O2 setting and =
see if my software version has this capability. I have both narrow and =
wideband sensors.
> >       I think when I last tried the autotune feature I had the =
wideband connected but the data dump confirms its setup for a narrowband =
sensor.
> > 2. If it does change in the Data Dump Screen - Row 1 Col 2 changing =
to 16h (currently 12h) then I=E2=80=99ll then try out the autotune =
again.
> > 3. I=E2=80=99d like to know which version of the code its using and =
how the mixture table is divided. Is it the 8 table version?
> >       General mixture settings are sort off OK at the moment for TO =
and cruise, but when we pull power and point her
> >       at the ground she goes way lean and outside of the manual =
mixtures controls ability to correct.
> >
> > For any non-coders that want to understand what we are talking about =
here:
> > The Datadump screen presents the data in Hexadecimal not Decimal.
> > We can represent numbers using various number systems. We tend to =
see=20
> > the world through the Decimal number system (Oh that the US had=20
> > adopted it fully!!!!) In decimal each digit of a number can be 0-9=20=

> > (ten states - therefore called DECimal) Because of the nature of how=20=

> > digital computers, that inherently are simply millions of switches=20=

> > that can be ON or OFF binary is the native language (two states - 0 =
OR=20
> > 1) So my EC2=E2=80=99s (8-bit) ENG CODE  can visualised/represented =
as=20
> > 00010010 binary OR 18 decimal OR 12 hexadecimal
> >
> > But reading binary is much more difficult for our brains and we can =
process this so much faster represented by 2 Hex digits rather than 8 =
binary digits.
> > - so each digit has the range 0-16 (16 states 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A =
B=20
> > C D E F)
> >
> > So my ENGCODE - 12h in DataDump Screen is -> 00010010 binary Binary =
is=20
> > written from right to left)
> >            =20
> >             Bit  0 - Non Turbo (0)
> >
> >              Bit 1 - Large Secondaries (1)
> >
> >              Bit  2 - Narrow Band O2 Sensor (0)
> >
> >              Bit 3 - Temp Sensor (0)
> >
> >              Bit 4 - Rotary (1)
> >
> >              Bit 5 - BUSensor (0)
> >
> >              Bit 6 - Cont
> >
> >              Bit 7 - CSON
> >
> > Hoping thats not unhelpful!
> >
> > Steve Izett
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 5 Jun 2020, at 2:33 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> To clarify, here is an excerpt from the EC3 manual:
> >>
> >> "CLOSED  LOOP MODES OF OPERATION.
> >> NOTE!   As of  9-12-2012  the EC3 includes a BETA version of the =
software that enables 2 closed loop modes as described below.   DO NOT =
enable them in flight until you are certain they are working properly on =
the ground.   You should also follow the instructions for setting up =
Mode 3 and 1 BEFORE trying these Closed Loop modes of operation.
> >>
> >> Before attempting operation in Closed loop mode, Make sure you have =
selected the type of O2 sensor you are using for either Narrow Band or =
Wideband sensors.  See Mode 5 instructions for details on doing this.
> >>
> >>   There are two closed loop modes.   When  Mode 1 is selected  with =
Cold Start switch ON the controller monitors the mixture and trims the =
injection to keep mixture close to the mixture point programmed in Mode =
0A  as long as the basic programming is within trim range which is =
pretty wide.    If this mode is working properly you should see the EC3 =
bring the mixture back to the set point after making a manual mixture =
control adjustment that would normally take it out of range.  If you =
can't verify this, do not try the auto program mode of closed loop (Mode =
3)
> >>
> >> The target for the closed loop modes is set in Mode 0A,  engine =
running, Mode 0 selected and cold start switch off.  With the engine =
running and warmed up, adjust the mixture control to the desired =
operating point by observing the mixture monitor.  If the monitor isn't =
working for any reason don't try to set this until it is.  When at the =
desired mixture, press the Store button.  The mixture target should now =
be set.
> >>
> >> The other closed loop mode (Mode 3 selected  with Cold Start switch =
ON) is the auto programming mode that adjusts the MAP table.  It  works =
the same way but uses a  narrow trim range and updates the map table if =
necessary to keep the mixture near the mixture point programmed in Mode  =
0A .   Since the loop is all internal to the EC3 it happens faster than =
the EM2/3 auto program mode in earlier versions and of course does not =
require the EM2/3 to work.   Should eliminate a lot of tuning headaches =
for some builders. Manual programming Modes 1 & 3 operate as described =
later in this manual with Cold Start switch off".
> >>
> >> Looks like for the stand-alone EC3 auto tune it must have the =
Closed-loop option.
> >>
> >> Does you EC2 have that?
> >>
> >> Finn
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/4/2020 1:58 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> I also have the EC2 & EM2 with the autotune. It does work, but it =
only makes changes to the map table at the address that you are =
currently on due to your throttle position. Moving your throttle =
position to other addresses will result in gaps where it is hard to hit =
each address using the auto tune. At this point though you should have a =
decent base line to work with and you can just manually go through the =
table to make adjustments as it will be obvious which ones need to be =
adjusted. Then repeat as required.
> >>> But as Andrew pointed out it uses a narrow-band O2 sensor, so it =
is not great. I have a PLX wide-band O2 sensor that also has a =
narrow-band output that feeds the input to the EM2. I can't say for sure =
but it did seem to give a more responsive signal to the EM2, which =
improved the auto tune. But as it also gives a very accurate and =
responsive wide-band output to it's own display, which is essential for =
fine tuning manually.
> >>>
> >>> Todd Bartrim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andrew Martin =
andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>> I have 2007 EC2, EM2 has autotune feature, I just found it quicker =
to tune manually as its setup for narrowband o2 sensor, but used =
wideband.
> >>> Andrew
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 10:14 pm, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>> I doubt there's auto tune in the EC2, but what do I know?
> >>>
> >>> OK, looked in EC2 source code, last comment ;10-09-05 (Oct 2005), =
so=20
> >>> I doubt it.
> >>> There's also source code for EC2F, what ever that is. Latest =
comment=20
> >>> there is ;03-16-12
> >>>
> >>> No mention of auto tune in either.
> >>>
> >>> I could be wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Finn
> >>>
> >>> On 6/4/2020 9:01 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Hi Finn & all
> >>>>
> >>>> Can anyone using an EC2 confirm if the Autotune functions works =
for them?
> >>>> Not the autotune built into the EM3 engine monitor, the EC2 =
version.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve Izett
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2 Jun 2020, at 10:10 pm, Stephen Izett =
stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Finn
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the updated EC3 doc. I had an older version.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2 Jun 2020, at 9:28 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, after putting the EC3 into injector test mode and checking =
that each is clicking (screwdriver as stethoscope) and into ignition =
test mode and see that all four plugs are firing, that would be my next =
step.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You say you've already checked that the wiring to coils and =
injectors are correct:
> >>>>>> J2-3 Prim Inj 1
> >>>>>> J2-4 Sec Inj 1
> >>>>>> ...
> >>>>>> J2-10 Trail Coil 1
> >>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I continuously surprised myself on how often I'd wired =
something wrong, in spite of trying to be very careful about getting it =
right. I wasn't kidding about Murphy working overtime.
> >>>>>> It's easy to get the pin numbering wrong on the connectors.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If I were getting desperate, I would remove (one at a time) the =
connectors on the injectors and coils and check continuity from J2 pin =
to the connector pin.
> >>>>>> (You know that the power side are correct because works with =
EC2)=20
> >>>>>> Finn Got the copper washers in the mail today, but think I'll=20=

> >>>>>> wait for these:
> >>>>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/293592023854
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 6/1/2020 7:30 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com =
wrote:
> >>>>>>> Thanks Finn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I had a chance to unpack the dump last night and conquer with =
your reflection.
> >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m in the dark re the EC3. Checked wiring twice now.
> >>>>>>> I must put a cro on the injectors and coils to confirm they =
are triggering correctly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2020, at 9:59 pm, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Program Mode 5 (Reset function)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As of 01-25-13 the EC3 can be used with either the common =
narrowband O2 sensors or the more advanced wideband sensor systems.   Be =
sure to verify that your wideband sensor outputs in the range of 0 - +5 =
volts if using a wideband type.  To select the type in use, use the =
power up program mode method below:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To select the O2 sensor type , perform the following steps:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1.  Turn the EC3 power off.
> >>>>>>>> 2.  Select mode 5 with the Mode Select switch 3.  Select the =
O2=20
> >>>>>>>> sensor type using the Cold Start switch:  Up =3D Wideband, =
Down =3D=20
> >>>>>>>> Narrowband 4.  Press and hold the Program Store switch.
> >>>>>>>> 5.  While holding down the Program Store switch, turn on the =
power switch to the EC3.
> >>>>>>>> 6.  Keep holding the Program Store switch for about 1 second, =
and then release it.
> >>>>>>>> 7.   Return the Mode Select switch to 0.
> >>>>>>>> 8.   Power the EC3 off.   When the EC3 is powered up again it =
will be set for the O2 sensor type selected.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Uploaded doc to:
> >>>>>>>> =
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mVzPOxUwcGUlPizxnRF40nU
> >>>>>>>> yKBzfT4DC?usp=3Dsharing
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> PDF version still states that B is automatically programmed =
when A is programmed. Not true. Use the Word doc.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Finn
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 6/1/2020 9:16 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com =
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Finn
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> How does the mode 5 O2 sensor change work.
> >>>>>>>>> Ive not found this in the EC3 documentation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2020, at 4:08 am, Stephen Izett =
stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Finn
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thats good news.
> >>>>>>>>>> At some point I=E2=80=99ll plug the EC3 in and see what the =
EM3 reports.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> We=E2=80=99re finally back in the air and testing again =
after the last 3 months of responding to COVID here in Perth.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Last mods included some reshaping of inlets and diffusers =
and tidying up the inlet manifold (grinding smooth some weld that had =
penetrated into the runners).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday our Renesis 4 port max fuel flow is up 10% to I =
think a reasonably accurate 18 gal/hr at 7100rpm, 29.5 inch of MAP and =
mixture at best power.
> >>>>>>>>>> We burn our Australian Premium Unleaded with no Ethanol =
which I believe is 6.26 lb/gal so I=E2=80=99m thinking thats around =
190hp.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2020, at 12:58 am, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Wrong engine code solved!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the dates of files in the EC3CL folder. These =
files were not updated to the date I programmed the EC3:
> >>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.cof
> >>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.map
> >>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.O
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> <mcppihngfoiehjon.png>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I started from scratch:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Unzipped the EC3CL folder.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Set ENG =3D A8; LS2COIL, LGSEC and WIDEBAND to 1 and rest =
to 0.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Did "Erase", "Clean" and "Build All" and "Program" in =
MPLAB and reinstalled chip for controller A.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Now EM3 correctly shows "A8" for engine code.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Changed to narrow band using mode 5, and EM3 display =
correctly changed from 16 to 12 for ENGINFO.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I must have chosen the "Make" option in MPLAB when I first =
programmed the chips, I guess.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately I must have damaged the controller B CPU =
chip when handling it (MPLAB reports device ID =3D 0) and will have to =
order a new one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Finn
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Still waiting for the $1.79 shipped copper washers to =
arrive=20
> >>>>>>>>>>> in mail. Maybe I should bite the bullet and order five =
(six)=20
> >>>>>>>>>>> Stat-O-Seal washer/O-rings at $8.56 per pack of two. =
$25.68=20
> >>>>>>>>>>> total :(
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>> --
> >>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>> Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>> --
> >>> Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
>=20
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   =
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>=20
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   =
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