X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=DUWv+hUk7Cu2hlvKYqx6KA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=u14ax5yjAAAA:20 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=6D11hDg6TNQP-w-ikWcA:9 a=0Sz_18uXaJ6tKb-l:21 a=WXuqs6o46f0FFH8q:21 a=QVvt5NBjJKBhnct9:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=S0wkRrzPavQA:10 a=5RLz8BTtAAAA:20 a=FP5BHPmJRMMEd3lZyLcA:9 a=vsgdLmXqsdEtd2ps:21 a=kVN5t9zS9KBKS27z:21 a=vsaYkH_LPUa37wpL:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f181.google.com ([209.85.167.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 336564 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:17:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.181; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f181.google.com with SMTP id p70so7195102oic.12 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:17:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zYY7kyYrFFhjt3+5oSlDbJSAK57WMnK2wrRX6eSzmiw=; b=Tow3qyHF8P6xZCwbL1zMcwvqhVre8iX/L2AL8LaJ+BISyFkWhY9D2dO03XwAonlkAf 3rn47aNeiuPgwiEcgBtQTOgB2FV+OZkfgoILo6btprQL/EUjxpMm4ef1qV+RKcq1ACQ4 bfzyJ7AVIcKsd452jlcizyrY/5u34YawhAEsSOxFoJnL/8cQsMzpkZJCmjU7a05HR/vU eEyrg67Mq5z7O76T2eb2UTKhx+ATNPI8QfU2YGz9xfM12zsyWJf470K2qDNoo03cd7Nh jlLviV8S+9RzYHkKhNpGGaiMXf4KROcM2WDHAk8MRB9tgEQGUdXgSYRq44+/e9Wq/xTM TUKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=zYY7kyYrFFhjt3+5oSlDbJSAK57WMnK2wrRX6eSzmiw=; b=RbhK0FjTAQu7s0rx3MLCKikEwH7mvP2gaVwgP8gvgIU+DixqluBNgYt6Adg+E2NJzv nX89wms7JdHpyMBbHZ+Pw4q2LdMdjZ0wjyckJKUuiVqCee+ibo0EV4DQglo7vlIlyLgB FVXBS+FtlE8gszGFsgPYS1NbLIWwqjP/5oeeAIEmSlxynut6o/k/XmURWIv4wHpoZAsc 7+J2MceUaV6IfHiNZm7ICSkWz2t66fHd/KZejGMW3YNw4b1UxaiC9P9DohJuvYQKJ8LG uGcRhwSAxI3IK7pc6BN6uwksGzxp0RJ3pawV7QSaQDRKWbMevRM1tbDWVYU0Y8zNCCeF LtLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Bmxx+WSxTwaLJ6F0uCsgFJjiZORvTcbGSx5T6U2VPrpi8QX8p Ynqf5Q9sK/7bi6t+FIJA+1XYa0WbfgLrCykpRHw76cY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxGlKYsiPHmvEY80Wv3FytMECCA+BpfIHMSet2SpCLsErq1qcyK3i4PTBB1+P4IQyrkeFkv+Uq/d/ld21fGeZE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:da55:: with SMTP id r82mr927980oig.100.1591334216661; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:16:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:16:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3fd7b05a74f5e58" --000000000000b3fd7b05a74f5e58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve; Sounds like you have the same issue that I had, with your low MAP, high RPM table. These are for addresses 64-127. Since we don't have to worry about shock cooling I prefer to always stay high then use a slip to make a steep approach but this results in low MAP, high RPM, which is not possible to duplicate on the ground while using autotune. So either you do this part manually or do a long descent from 12K or so while using autotune. I felt safer doing it on the ground. This is where the PLX wide-band O2 display paid for itself. As soon as I'd chop the power and begin my approach it would start popping and farting even with the manual mixture control full left. I didn't believe it could really still be lean. I had made what I thought were large increases in the MAP table where I thought I should but it didn't help much. Once I got the wide-band display going with it's digital graph I could plainly see as soon as I chopped the power and began descending that the mixture would climb and go hi-off-scale at 20. I put a POV camera looking at the panel and I put the EM2 into track mode (button 1 & 2), so that I could record this while landing. I ended up moving some of these adresses right up to near the top of the range in order to get the mixture right. I would turn it on right now and have a look at the actual values for you, but I have the panel out of the plane right now as I'm making some other changes. When you say that you have both wide-band and narrow-band sensors, I assume that you mean just the sensor element which you are using to input to the EM2? As far as I know the EM2 was only ever able to use the 0-1volt signal of the narrow-band sensor. It wasn't until the EM3 that could accept the 0-5volt signal from the wide-band. And the small bar indicator on the EM2 is tough to use for fine tuning. Using a dedicated unit such as the PLX (or any number of other brands) gives a seperate display with high resolution scrolling graph, numerical display and a simple ring of LEDs around the bezel. It also has a seperate 0-1volt or 0-5volt output that is input to the EM2 (intended as an input for vehicles that require this) to keep the EM2 display and allow for autotuning. As I said, I believe, but don't have definitive evidence, that the 0-1volt narrow band signal that it outputs is more stable than the one that was generated by the old narrow-band sensor. This made the autotune function better as a result. I really believe that a standalone wide-band O2 display is an essential tuning tool. I originally just had the small display stuck at the edge of the panel with velcro, but last night I juggled around some other items and gave it a permanent home on my panel right below the EM2 display. Todd Bartrim On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:07 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Finn, > Have kept out to date as I am computer illiterate as well a= s > stupid. Now you are getting into my experience, rough running. I spent > many hours trying to get my engine to not miss at higher revs. In the en= d > it was mixture. It was too rich of all things. The rotary seems very > sensitive to mixture. My $0,02 cents worth. > Neil. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:40 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? > > I stand corrected. > > Got the washer/o-rings in the mail today. Installed in pump-assembly. No > leaks (tested to the 38psi I set the pressure regulator to). Thanks to Bi= ll > for the tip on those kind of washers! > > Ran the engine again. Still no RPM readout. I have messed up the > programming of the EM3 with all my changes. (I now have eight 2 volt > channels, eight 5 volt channels, eight CHT, eight EGT plus battery voltag= e, > MAP, RPM, Fuel Flow and MPG. Yes 36 channels output to data log USB stick > every second or so. > > Engine still runs very rough. Can't keep it running. > All four plugs firing. All injectors clicking. > I guess the next step is to verify wiring from J2 to individual connector= s. > Not sure what to look for with a timing light (if I can get the engine to > run long enough to use it). > How do I find TDC on the stock Renesis timing wheel? > > Finn > > On 6/4/2020 7:23 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > > Hi Finn and all. > > > > As the years have gone by its hard to remember various things but: > > 1. The EC2 .asm file (Actual EC2 Controller code - for non coders) > > that I think I reprogrammed my EC2 with years ago is called EC2CL8.asm > The CL is a hint me thinks. > > 2. I have a recollection that I had the mode#1 autotune function (not > the original EM3 capability) working years ago ie. manually causing mixtu= re > rich, and EC would trim it back. > > > > I=E2=80=99m headed for the hangar this morning so I=E2=80=99ll: > > 1. First I=E2=80=99ll try using mode#5 to change the O2 setting and see= if my > software version has this capability. I have both narrow and wideband > sensors. > > I think when I last tried the autotune feature I had the wideband > connected but the data dump confirms its setup for a narrowband sensor. > > 2. If it does change in the Data Dump Screen - Row 1 Col 2 changing to > 16h (currently 12h) then I=E2=80=99ll then try out the autotune again. > > 3. I=E2=80=99d like to know which version of the code its using and how= the > mixture table is divided. Is it the 8 table version? > > General mixture settings are sort off OK at the moment for TO and > cruise, but when we pull power and point her > > at the ground she goes way lean and outside of the manual mixture= s > controls ability to correct. > > > > For any non-coders that want to understand what we are talking about > here: > > The Datadump screen presents the data in Hexadecimal not Decimal. > > We can represent numbers using various number systems. We tend to see > > the world through the Decimal number system (Oh that the US had > > adopted it fully!!!!) In decimal each digit of a number can be 0-9 > > (ten states - therefore called DECimal) Because of the nature of how > > digital computers, that inherently are simply millions of switches > > that can be ON or OFF binary is the native language (two states - 0 OR > > 1) So my EC2=E2=80=99s (8-bit) ENG CODE can visualised/represented as > > 00010010 binary OR 18 decimal OR 12 hexadecimal > > > > But reading binary is much more difficult for our brains and we can > process this so much faster represented by 2 Hex digits rather than 8 > binary digits. > > - so each digit has the range 0-16 (16 states 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B > > C D E F) > > > > So my ENGCODE - 12h in DataDump Screen is -> 00010010 binary Binary is > > written from right to left) > > > > Bit 0 - Non Turbo (0) > > > > Bit 1 - Large Secondaries (1) > > > > Bit 2 - Narrow Band O2 Sensor (0) > > > > Bit 3 - Temp Sensor (0) > > > > Bit 4 - Rotary (1) > > > > Bit 5 - BUSensor (0) > > > > Bit 6 - Cont > > > > Bit 7 - CSON > > > > Hoping thats not unhelpful! > > > > Steve Izett > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 5 Jun 2020, at 2:33 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> > >> To clarify, here is an excerpt from the EC3 manual: > >> > >> "CLOSED LOOP MODES OF OPERATION. > >> NOTE! As of 9-12-2012 the EC3 includes a BETA version of the > software that enables 2 closed loop modes as described below. DO NOT > enable them in flight until you are certain they are working properly on > the ground. You should also follow the instructions for setting up Mode= 3 > and 1 BEFORE trying these Closed Loop modes of operation. > >> > >> Before attempting operation in Closed loop mode, Make sure you have > selected the type of O2 sensor you are using for either Narrow Band or > Wideband sensors. See Mode 5 instructions for details on doing this. > >> > >> There are two closed loop modes. When Mode 1 is selected with > Cold Start switch ON the controller monitors the mixture and trims the > injection to keep mixture close to the mixture point programmed in Mode 0= A > as long as the basic programming is within trim range which is pretty > wide. If this mode is working properly you should see the EC3 bring th= e > mixture back to the set point after making a manual mixture control > adjustment that would normally take it out of range. If you can't verify > this, do not try the auto program mode of closed loop (Mode 3) > >> > >> The target for the closed loop modes is set in Mode 0A, engine > running, Mode 0 selected and cold start switch off. With the engine > running and warmed up, adjust the mixture control to the desired operatin= g > point by observing the mixture monitor. If the monitor isn't working for > any reason don't try to set this until it is. When at the desired mixtur= e, > press the Store button. The mixture target should now be set. > >> > >> The other closed loop mode (Mode 3 selected with Cold Start switch ON= ) > is the auto programming mode that adjusts the MAP table. It works the > same way but uses a narrow trim range and updates the map table if > necessary to keep the mixture near the mixture point programmed in Mode = 0A > . Since the loop is all internal to the EC3 it happens faster than the > EM2/3 auto program mode in earlier versions and of course does not requir= e > the EM2/3 to work. Should eliminate a lot of tuning headaches for some > builders. Manual programming Modes 1 & 3 operate as described later in th= is > manual with Cold Start switch off". > >> > >> Looks like for the stand-alone EC3 auto tune it must have the > Closed-loop option. > >> > >> Does you EC2 have that? > >> > >> Finn > >> > >> > >> On 6/4/2020 1:58 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote: > >>> I also have the EC2 & EM2 with the autotune. It does work, but it onl= y > makes changes to the map table at the address that you are currently on d= ue > to your throttle position. Moving your throttle position to other address= es > will result in gaps where it is hard to hit each address using the auto > tune. At this point though you should have a decent base line to work wit= h > and you can just manually go through the table to make adjustments as it > will be obvious which ones need to be adjusted. Then repeat as required. > >>> But as Andrew pointed out it uses a narrow-band O2 sensor, so it is > not great. I have a PLX wide-band O2 sensor that also has a narrow-band > output that feeds the input to the EM2. I can't say for sure but it did > seem to give a more responsive signal to the EM2, which improved the auto > tune. But as it also gives a very accurate and responsive wide-band outpu= t > to it's own display, which is essential for fine tuning manually. > >>> > >>> Todd Bartrim > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>> I have 2007 EC2, EM2 has autotune feature, I just found it quicker to > tune manually as its setup for narrowband o2 sensor, but used wideband. > >>> Andrew > >>> > >>> On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 10:14 pm, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>> I doubt there's auto tune in the EC2, but what do I know? > >>> > >>> OK, looked in EC2 source code, last comment ;10-09-05 (Oct 2005), so > >>> I doubt it. > >>> There's also source code for EC2F, what ever that is. Latest comment > >>> there is ;03-16-12 > >>> > >>> No mention of auto tune in either. > >>> > >>> I could be wrong. > >>> > >>> Finn > >>> > >>> On 6/4/2020 9:01 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> Hi Finn & all > >>>> > >>>> Can anyone using an EC2 confirm if the Autotune functions works for > them? > >>>> Not the autotune built into the EM3 engine monitor, the EC2 version. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks > >>>> > >>>> Steve Izett > >>>> > >>>>> On 2 Jun 2020, at 10:10 pm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Finn > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for the updated EC3 doc. I had an older version. > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 2 Jun 2020, at 9:28 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, after putting the EC3 into injector test mode and checking > that each is clicking (screwdriver as stethoscope) and into ignition test > mode and see that all four plugs are firing, that would be my next step. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You say you've already checked that the wiring to coils and > injectors are correct: > >>>>>> J2-3 Prim Inj 1 > >>>>>> J2-4 Sec Inj 1 > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>> J2-10 Trail Coil 1 > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I continuously surprised myself on how often I'd wired something > wrong, in spite of trying to be very careful about getting it right. I > wasn't kidding about Murphy working overtime. > >>>>>> It's easy to get the pin numbering wrong on the connectors. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If I were getting desperate, I would remove (one at a time) the > connectors on the injectors and coils and check continuity from J2 pin to > the connector pin. > >>>>>> (You know that the power side are correct because works with EC2) > >>>>>> Finn Got the copper washers in the mail today, but think I'll > >>>>>> wait for these: > >>>>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/293592023854 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 6/1/2020 7:30 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > >>>>>>> Thanks Finn. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I had a chance to unpack the dump last night and conquer with you= r > reflection. > >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m in the dark re the EC3. Checked wiring twice now. > >>>>>>> I must put a cro on the injectors and coils to confirm they are > triggering correctly. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Steve > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2020, at 9:59 pm, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Program Mode 5 (Reset function) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As of 01-25-13 the EC3 can be used with either the common > narrowband O2 sensors or the more advanced wideband sensor systems. Be > sure to verify that your wideband sensor outputs in the range of 0 - +5 > volts if using a wideband type. To select the type in use, use the power > up program mode method below: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To select the O2 sensor type , perform the following steps: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1. Turn the EC3 power off. > >>>>>>>> 2. Select mode 5 with the Mode Select switch 3. Select the O2 > >>>>>>>> sensor type using the Cold Start switch: Up =3D Wideband, Down = =3D > >>>>>>>> Narrowband 4. Press and hold the Program Store switch. > >>>>>>>> 5. While holding down the Program Store switch, turn on the > power switch to the EC3. > >>>>>>>> 6. Keep holding the Program Store switch for about 1 second, an= d > then release it. > >>>>>>>> 7. Return the Mode Select switch to 0. > >>>>>>>> 8. Power the EC3 off. When the EC3 is powered up again it > will be set for the O2 sensor type selected. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Uploaded doc to: > >>>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mVzPOxUwcGUlPizxnRF40nU > >>>>>>>> yKBzfT4DC?usp=3Dsharing > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> PDF version still states that B is automatically programmed when > A is programmed. Not true. Use the Word doc. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Finn > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 6/1/2020 9:16 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote= : > >>>>>>>>> Hi Finn > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> How does the mode 5 O2 sensor change work. > >>>>>>>>> Ive not found this in the EC3 documentation. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Steve > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2020, at 4:08 am, Stephen Izett > stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Finn > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thats good news. > >>>>>>>>>> At some point I=E2=80=99ll plug the EC3 in and see what the EM= 3 reports. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> We=E2=80=99re finally back in the air and testing again after = the last > 3 months of responding to COVID here in Perth. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Last mods included some reshaping of inlets and diffusers and > tidying up the inlet manifold (grinding smooth some weld that had > penetrated into the runners). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday our Renesis 4 port max fuel flow is up 10% to I thin= k > a reasonably accurate 18 gal/hr at 7100rpm, 29.5 inch of MAP and mixture = at > best power. > >>>>>>>>>> We burn our Australian Premium Unleaded with no Ethanol which = I > believe is 6.26 lb/gal so I=E2=80=99m thinking thats around 190hp. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Steve > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2020, at 12:58 am, Finn Lassen > finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Wrong engine code solved! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the dates of files in the EC3CL folder. These > files were not updated to the date I programmed the EC3: > >>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.cof > >>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.map > >>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.O > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> So I started from scratch: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Unzipped the EC3CL folder. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Set ENG =3D A8; LS2COIL, LGSEC and WIDEBAND to 1 and rest to = 0. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Did "Erase", "Clean" and "Build All" and "Program" in MPLAB > and reinstalled chip for controller A. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Now EM3 correctly shows "A8" for engine code. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Changed to narrow band using mode 5, and EM3 display correctl= y > changed from 16 to 12 for ENGINFO. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I must have chosen the "Make" option in MPLAB when I first > programmed the chips, I guess. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately I must have damaged the controller B CPU chip > when handling it (MPLAB reports device ID =3D 0) and will have to order a= new > one. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Finn > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Still waiting for the $1.79 shipped copper washers to arrive > >>>>>>>>>>> in mail. Maybe I should bite the bullet and order five (six) > >>>>>>>>>>> Stat-O-Seal washer/O-rings at $8.56 per pack of two. $25.68 > >>>>>>>>>>> total :( > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>> -- > >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >>> -- > >>> Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag > >> > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --000000000000b3fd7b05a74f5e58 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sounds like you have the same i= ssue that I had, with your low MAP, high RPM table. These are for=C2=A0addr= esses 64-127.
=C2=A0 Since we don't have to worry about shock= cooling I prefer to always stay high then use a slip to make a steep appro= ach but this results in low MAP, high RPM, which is not possible to duplica= te on the ground while using autotune. So either you do this part manually = or do a long descent from 12K or so while using autotune. I felt safer doin= g it on the ground.
=C2=A0 This is where the PLX wide-band O2 dis= play paid for itself. As soon as I'd chop the power and begin my approa= ch=C2=A0it would start popping and farting even with the manual mixture con= trol full left. I didn't believe it could really still be lean. I had m= ade what I thought were large increases in the MAP table where I thought I = should but it didn't=C2=A0help much. Once I got the wide-band display g= oing with it's digital graph I could plainly see as soon as I chopped t= he power and began descending that the mixture would climb and go hi-off-sc= ale at 20. I put a POV camera looking at the panel and I put the EM2 into t= rack mode (button 1 & 2), so that I could record this while landing. I = ended up moving some of these adresses=C2=A0right up to near the top of the= range in order to get the mixture right.
I would turn it on righ= t now and have a look at the actual values for you, but I have the panel ou= t of the plane right now as I'm making some other changes.
Wh= en you say that you have both wide-band and narrow-band sensors, I assume= =C2=A0that you mean just the sensor element which you are using to input to= the EM2?
As far as I know the EM2 was only ever able to use the = 0-1volt signal of the narrow-band sensor. It wasn't until the EM3 that = could accept the 0-5volt signal from the wide-band. And the small bar indic= ator on the EM2 is tough to use for fine tuning. Using a dedicated unit suc= h as the PLX (or any number of other brands) gives a seperate display with = high resolution=C2=A0scrolling graph, numerical display and a simple ring o= f LEDs around the bezel. It also has a seperate 0-1volt or 0-5volt output t= hat is input to the EM2 (intended as an input for vehicles that require thi= s) to keep the EM2 display and allow for autotuning. As I said, I believe, = but don't have definitive evidence, that the 0-1volt narrow band signal= that it outputs is more stable than the one that was generated by the old = narrow-band sensor. This made the autotune function better=C2=A0as a result= .
=C2=A0 I really believe that a standalone wide-band O2 display = is an essential tuning tool. I originally just had the small display stuck = at the edge of the panel with velcro, but last night I juggled around some = other items and gave it a permanent home on my panel right below the EM2 di= splay.

Todd Bartrim


On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:07 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Finn,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Have kept out to date as I= am computer illiterate as well as stupid.=C2=A0 Now=C2=A0 you are getting = into my experience, rough running.=C2=A0 I spent many hours trying to get m= y engine to not miss at higher revs.=C2=A0 In the end it was mixture.=C2=A0= It was too rich of all things.=C2=A0 The rotary seems very sensitive to mi= xture.=C2=A0 My $0,02 cents worth.
Neil.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:40 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not?

I stand corrected.

Got the washer/o-rings in the mail today. Installed in pump-assembly. No le= aks (tested to the 38psi I set the pressure regulator to). Thanks to Bill f= or the tip on those kind of washers!

Ran the engine again. Still no RPM readout. I have messed up the programmin= g of the EM3 with all my changes. (I now have eight 2 volt channels, eight = 5 volt channels, eight CHT, eight EGT plus battery voltage, MAP, RPM, Fuel = Flow and MPG. Yes 36 channels output to data log USB stick every second or = so.

Engine still runs very rough. Can't keep it running.
All four plugs firing. All injectors clicking.
I guess the next step is to verify wiring from J2 to individual connectors.=
Not sure what to look for with a timing light (if I can get the engine to r= un long enough to use it).
How do I find TDC on the stock Renesis timing wheel?

Finn

On 6/4/2020 7:23 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Finn and all.
>
> As the years have gone by its hard to remember various things but:
> 1. The EC2=C2=A0 .asm file (Actual EC2 Controller code - for non coder= s)
> that I think I reprogrammed my EC2 with years ago is called EC2CL8.asm= The CL is a hint me thinks.
> 2. I have a recollection that I had the mode#1 autotune function (not = the original EM3 capability) working years ago ie. manually causing mixture= rich, and EC would trim it back.
>
> I=E2=80=99m headed for the hangar this morning so I=E2=80=99ll:
> 1. First I=E2=80=99ll try using mode#5 to change the O2 setting and se= e if my software version has this capability. I have both narrow and wideba= nd sensors.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think when I last tried the autotune featu= re I had the wideband connected but the data dump confirms its setup for a = narrowband sensor.
> 2. If it does change in the Data Dump Screen - Row 1 Col 2 changing to= 16h (currently 12h) then I=E2=80=99ll then try out the autotune again.
> 3. I=E2=80=99d like to know which version of the code its using and ho= w the mixture table is divided. Is it the 8 table version?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0General mixture settings are sort off OK at = the moment for TO and cruise, but when we pull power and point her
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at the ground she goes way lean and outside = of the manual mixtures controls ability to correct.
>
> For any non-coders that want to understand what we are talking about h= ere:
> The Datadump screen presents the data in Hexadecimal not Decimal.
> We can represent numbers using various number systems. We tend to see =
> the world through the Decimal number system (Oh that the US had
> adopted it fully!!!!) In decimal each digit of a number can be 0-9 > (ten states - therefore called DECimal) Because of the nature of how <= br> > digital computers, that inherently are simply millions of switches > that can be ON or OFF binary is the native language (two states - 0 OR=
> 1) So my EC2=E2=80=99s (8-bit) ENG CODE=C2=A0 can visualised/represent= ed as
> 00010010 binary OR 18 decimal OR 12 hexadecimal
>
> But reading binary is much more difficult for our brains and we can pr= ocess this so much faster represented by 2 Hex digits rather than 8 binary = digits.
> - so each digit has the range 0-16 (16 states 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B =
> C D E F)
>
> So my ENGCODE - 12h in DataDump Screen is -> 00010010 binary Binary= is
> written from right to left)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit=C2=A0 0 - Non Turbo= (0)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit 1 - Large Secondar= ies (1)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit=C2=A0 2 - Narrow B= and O2 Sensor (0)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit 3 - Temp Sensor (0= )
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit 4 - Rotary (1)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit 5 - BUSensor (0) >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit 6 - Cont
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bit 7 - CSON
>
> Hoping thats not unhelpful!
>
> Steve Izett
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 5 Jun 2020, at 2:33 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:
>>
>> To clarify, here is an excerpt from the EC3 manual:
>>
>> "CLOSED=C2=A0 LOOP MODES OF OPERATION.
>> NOTE!=C2=A0 =C2=A0As of=C2=A0 9-12-2012=C2=A0 the EC3 includes a B= ETA version of the software that enables 2 closed loop modes as described b= elow.=C2=A0 =C2=A0DO NOT enable them in flight until you are certain they a= re working properly on the ground.=C2=A0 =C2=A0You should also follow the i= nstructions for setting up Mode 3 and 1 BEFORE trying these Closed Loop mod= es of operation.
>>
>> Before attempting operation in Closed loop mode, Make sure you hav= e selected the type of O2 sensor you are using for either Narrow Band or Wi= deband sensors.=C2=A0 See Mode 5 instructions for details on doing this. >>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0There are two closed loop modes.=C2=A0 =C2=A0When=C2= =A0 Mode 1 is selected=C2=A0 with Cold Start switch ON the controller monit= ors the mixture and trims the injection to keep mixture close to the mixtur= e point programmed in Mode 0A=C2=A0 as long as the basic programming is wit= hin trim range which is pretty wide.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If this mode is working p= roperly you should see the EC3 bring the mixture back to the set point afte= r making a manual mixture control adjustment that would normally take it ou= t of range.=C2=A0 If you can't verify this, do not try the auto program= mode of closed loop (Mode 3)
>>
>> The target for the closed loop modes is set in Mode 0A,=C2=A0 engi= ne running, Mode 0 selected and cold start switch off.=C2=A0 With the engin= e running and warmed up, adjust the mixture control to the desired operatin= g point by observing the mixture monitor.=C2=A0 If the monitor isn't wo= rking for any reason don't try to set this until it is.=C2=A0 When at t= he desired mixture, press the Store button.=C2=A0 The mixture target should= now be set.
>>
>> The other closed loop mode (Mode 3 selected=C2=A0 with Cold Start = switch ON) is the auto programming mode that adjusts the MAP table.=C2=A0 I= t=C2=A0 works the same way but uses a=C2=A0 narrow trim range and updates t= he map table if necessary to keep the mixture near the mixture point progra= mmed in Mode=C2=A0 0A .=C2=A0 =C2=A0Since the loop is all internal to the E= C3 it happens faster than the EM2/3 auto program mode in earlier versions a= nd of course does not require the EM2/3 to work.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Should elimina= te a lot of tuning headaches for some builders. Manual programming Modes 1 = & 3 operate as described later in this manual with Cold Start switch of= f".
>>
>> Looks like for the stand-alone EC3 auto tune it must have the Clos= ed-loop option.
>>
>> Does you EC2 have that?
>>
>> Finn
>>
>>
>> On 6/4/2020 1:58 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I also have the EC2 & EM2 with the autotune. It does work,= but it only makes changes to the map table at the address that you are cur= rently on due to your throttle position. Moving your throttle position to o= ther addresses will result in gaps where it is hard to hit each address usi= ng the auto tune. At this point though you should have a decent base line t= o work with and you can just manually go through the table to make adjustme= nts as it will be obvious which ones need to be adjusted. Then repeat as re= quired.
>>> But as Andrew pointed out it uses a narrow-band O2 sensor, so = it is not great. I have a PLX wide-band O2 sensor that also has a narrow-ba= nd output that feeds the input to the EM2. I can't say for sure but it = did seem to give a more responsive signal to the EM2, which improved the au= to tune. But as it also gives a very accurate and responsive wide-band outp= ut to it's own display, which is essential for fine tuning manually. >>>
>>> Todd Bartrim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au <<= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net> wrote:
>>> I have 2007 EC2, EM2 has autotune feature, I just found it qui= cker to tune manually as its setup for narrowband o2 sensor, but used wideb= and.
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 10:14 pm, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <= flyrotary@= lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>> I doubt there's auto tune in the EC2, but what do I know?<= br> >>>
>>> OK, looked in EC2 source code, last comment ;10-09-05 (Oct 200= 5), so
>>> I doubt it.
>>> There's also source code for EC2F, what ever that is. Late= st comment
>>> there is ;03-16-12
>>>
>>> No mention of auto tune in either.
>>>
>>> I could be wrong.
>>>
>>> Finn
>>>
>>> On 6/4/2020 9:01 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Hi Finn & all
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone using an EC2 confirm if the Autotune functions = works for them?
>>>> Not the autotune built into the EM3 engine monitor, the EC= 2 version.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Steve Izett
>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Jun 2020, at 10:10 pm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Finn
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the updated EC3 doc. I had an older version= .
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2 Jun 2020, at 9:28 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, after putting the EC3 into injector test mode= and checking that each is clicking (screwdriver as stethoscope) and into i= gnition test mode and see that all four plugs are firing, that would be my = next step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You say you've already checked that the wiring= to coils and injectors are correct:
>>>>>> J2-3 Prim Inj 1
>>>>>> J2-4 Sec Inj 1
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> J2-10 Trail Coil 1
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I continuously surprised myself on how often I'= ;d wired something wrong, in spite of trying to be very careful about getti= ng it right. I wasn't kidding about Murphy working overtime.
>>>>>> It's easy to get the pin numbering wrong on th= e connectors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I were getting desperate, I would remove (one a= t a time) the connectors on the injectors and coils and check continuity fr= om J2 pin to the connector pin.
>>>>>> (You know that the power side are correct because = works with EC2)
>>>>>> Finn Got the copper washers in the mail today, but= think I'll
>>>>>> wait for these:
>>>>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/293592023854<= /a>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/1/2020 7:30 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com w= rote:
>>>>>>> Thanks Finn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had a chance to unpack the dump last night a= nd conquer with your reflection.
>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m in the dark re the EC3. Checked wi= ring twice now.
>>>>>>> I must put a cro on the injectors and coils to= confirm they are triggering correctly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1 Jun 2020, at 9:59 pm, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@veriz= on.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Program Mode 5 (Reset function)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As of 01-25-13 the EC3 can be used with ei= ther the common narrowband O2 sensors or the more advanced wideband sensor = systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Be sure to verify that your wideband sensor outputs in= the range of 0 - +5 volts if using a wideband type.=C2=A0 To select the ty= pe in use, use the power up program mode method below:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To select the O2 sensor type , perform the= following steps:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.=C2=A0 Turn the EC3 power off.
>>>>>>>> 2.=C2=A0 Select mode 5 with the Mode Selec= t switch 3.=C2=A0 Select the O2
>>>>>>>> sensor type using the Cold Start switch:= =C2=A0 Up =3D Wideband, Down =3D
>>>>>>>> Narrowband 4.=C2=A0 Press and hold the Pro= gram Store switch.
>>>>>>>> 5.=C2=A0 While holding down the Program St= ore switch, turn on the power switch to the EC3.
>>>>>>>> 6.=C2=A0 Keep holding the Program Store sw= itch for about 1 second, and then release it.
>>>>>>>> 7.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Return the Mode Select swit= ch to 0.
>>>>>>>> 8.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Power the EC3 off.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0When the EC3 is powered up again it will be set for the O2 sensor typ= e selected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Uploaded doc to:
>>>>>>>> http= s://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mVzPOxUwcGUlPizxnRF40nU
>>>>>>>> yKBzfT4DC?usp=3Dsharing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PDF version still states that B is automat= ically programmed when A is programmed. Not true. Use the Word doc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/1/2020 9:16 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.c= om wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Finn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How does the mode 5 O2 sensor change w= ork.
>>>>>>>>> Ive not found this in the EC3 document= ation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2020, at 4:08 am, Stephe= n Izett stephe= n.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Finn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thats good news.
>>>>>>>>>> At some point I=E2=80=99ll plug th= e EC3 in and see what the EM3 reports.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We=E2=80=99re finally back in the = air and testing again after the last 3 months of responding to COVID here i= n Perth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Last mods included some reshaping = of inlets and diffusers and tidying up the inlet manifold (grinding smooth = some weld that had penetrated into the runners).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yesterday our Renesis 4 port max f= uel flow is up 10% to I think a reasonably accurate 18 gal/hr at 7100rpm, 2= 9.5 inch of MAP and mixture at best power.
>>>>>>>>>> We burn our Australian Premium Unl= eaded with no Ethanol which I believe is 6.26 lb/gal so I=E2=80=99m thinkin= g thats around 190hp.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31 May 2020, at 12:58 am, F= inn Lassen fin= n.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong engine code solved!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the dates of files= in the EC3CL folder. These files were not updated to the date I programmed= the EC3:
>>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.cof
>>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.map
>>>>>>>>>>> ECCL8.O
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mcppihngfoiehjon.png> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I started from scratch:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unzipped the EC3CL folder.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Set ENG =3D A8; LS2COIL, LGSEC= and WIDEBAND to 1 and rest to 0.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Did "Erase", "C= lean" and "Build All" and "Program" in MPLAB and r= einstalled chip for controller A.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now EM3 correctly shows "= A8" for engine code.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Changed to narrow band using m= ode 5, and EM3 display correctly changed from 16 to 12 for ENGINFO.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I must have chosen the "M= ake" option in MPLAB when I first programmed the chips, I guess.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately I must have dama= ged the controller B CPU chip when handling it (MPLAB reports device ID =3D= 0) and will have to order a new one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Still waiting for the $1.79 sh= ipped copper washers to arrive
>>>>>>>>>>> in mail. Maybe I should bite t= he bullet and order five (six)
>>>>>>>>>>> Stat-O-Seal washer/O-rings at = $8.56 per pack of two. $25.68
>>>>>>>>>>> total :(
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrota= ry.com/
>>>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrot= ary/List.html
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.c= om/
>>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/<= /a>
>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/<= br> >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>>>> --
>>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br> >>>> --
>>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>> --
>>> Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
>>
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>


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