From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not?
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 21:14:13 -0400
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Will do.

No backfiring noted, but then I don't think I got RPMs above1,000 at a 
guess. Just ran uneven. Run, almost dying, run again, etc. Mixture 
control did not seem to have any effect.

I'm probably posting all this way too early -- not enough actual data.

Working on refinishing and balancing my RV-3B prop so I can use that for 
testing.

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:55 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
> I’ll be really keen to hear how the engine runs when you’ve had a chance to settle the initial tune.
> I’m interested because my reprogram of the EC3 chips yielded a spluttering backfiring mess!
> Does a Harley sound like a spluttering backfiring mess?
> Its as if the timing of the ignition was all out. I thought between us we had the software fuses right, but wondered if some debug stuff was messing things up.
> In the mean time I’m using my EC2 which I did reprogram years ago myself and is all good.
>
> Steve
>
>> On 26 May 2020, at 8:47 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Steve, makes sense now.
>>
>> Finn
>>
>> On 5/25/2020 6:50 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Hi Finn
>>>
>>> Its about the differential pressure across the injector when its switched on.
>>> If the fuel rail  stayed constant pressure, but the pressure in the manifold/port varies, as it does with throttle position&rpm, the fuel flow will vary (not good).
>>> With the regulator tracking manifold pressure then the injectors always pass the same amount of fuel per time open.
>>>
>>> Steve Izett
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 26 May 2020, at 6:44 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but is there a way to tell?
>>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859
>>>> Using the 80 psi one for fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and then to intake plenum after throttle body.
>>>>
>>>> So, lower MAP = more air?
>>>> More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure?
>>>>
>>>> Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run.
>>>>
>>>> But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite understand the need for varying the fuel pressure.
>>>>
>>>> Bear with me, I'm new to EFI.
>>>>
>>>> Finn
>>>>
>>>> On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute).
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
>>>>>> Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
>>>>>>> You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ran for the first time today (no prop).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :(
>>>>>>>>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
>>>>>>>>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
>>>>>>>>> Too lazy to redo the output block.
>>>>>>>>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
>>>>>>>>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
>>>>>>>>> Didn't log the run where that worked.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Great work Finn
>>>>>>>>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
>>>>>>>>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen
>>>>>>>>>>> finn.lassen@verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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