X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=LuPsNUVc c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=J+1pRdGOp9T2jQcSQ/Dyag==:117 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=d_30a814dLcA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=j0GXybIrAAAA:20 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=sGklZlGwV38nPn_YrDAA:9 a=jn-tj9ayyqsFjINw:21 a=Kp-RNZ8SVvEX9sRZ:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=LodxeZ5VMPAcmso687wA:9 a=vN7aimH2GbwB1ybT:21 a=OTy-fEyhwy5p89OX:21 a=_tfBKVbPiyiQOSF0:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic311-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 254805 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 19 May 2020 09:27:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.188.204; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1589894849; bh=MV9UDG+cyZCfcsEdhm3Vrn0WsajDy0HSSvMIKepuhHM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=YwdaJjdlGFVxUPJVR4ml11v+RejzKPibUF5kRA/nZxE7SoPteRXj+x6kPQ3nuqbfd6Zbm4Y+GMjVZy56FdCuXy93z3TCXMTkrb+njQtA+hjVx3Rr156Lpr2lluniujhjAQabpetKqDAdeYOvV/FCnC5MU/xu92VWEgu7Q5bm1EkPt01VaJJG9N87qkCeu8r8WZG5hrFh0REVLzN6pddBZQKdj7xk6eZAsatuBJQuBvJ7IyGVN54wLCkiQgZp8teOqielU8v/bS5qaN4O1TfDnoGP6fz4kX/+Yx9bucy52gKjyIAB5cMbP0gLHHWsAX0eHGOWrRjHR2CKdHFL8fUQHw== X-YMail-OSG: z9Dvl0cVM1nClpSGN6rvbmJ9XKxl_etsSRUf1DP_9l00yzNfcokCyLr6LNXTShk BTJYV24j6MNX5gqUbD8dDsn.xhJDnF6yqx8dSREJVs3EMNDwVlMS6jfIHy1A6IIG0Oo.z0_3LrQM P0_shLr34cKxRfdJn8cj30sfEeZ6BFjSi3Z3aF8Uyu5wxKvWGEr2CcbtICuisren7jnhNc_CeaVT E44wIL4trU61O7YPGPnvtPkAc25AfvvOgENNlsFNxTC.oDNO.c71.xaAS3b6fAkaaXQ_HOXH68EB aFpyLPyizG0cJYiJDrODzF8IMgz4rR.7o68TNnEoJ5.Mqua2rNzrO9OTzYTiEkOdE53ni4tVGF4N 5YGIIkvcUvvJr2wEGwGHB_RpU.x8ty4oX_YyKP7jgj3OdKgvvYPIE3mUIgdQcgdP8uZNBqf7oC_z cUmAU7QUbXfD59K9nRsHxjZoVlO1rAlnoIUJVShFwKLVDIGCqUPt0Gah4SlZRuw.XWiDoT.g9I76 v4dQ7qV8s0P4yDdLf8qaImtrH.DwMUtLkoWUpZIKS3fajLMi4TKv1f_H2zG85hLsJnhaGvOlkCtO QB8BqxTYJh1Gd.CwtAt4JIyiqlVL.ohXYmRzRZWdNJ6Pt8_7KK59Fd7okGigtx3Nl4880JPO9Ygy Zk6llKQklxomJMqw4ce3EUzrM9GYAtgCAPwn_uyK9XTa.33qraHstU55C7efaJx7jErHPoU0sHqP fHsz2D8LkJULw4c7dQJbKR0nmWHee3SFcIBt4_Bkoe0BptfzB7yb4ncoupXDd_.hJqDrCppskqGH lVSdHRC01zDB2W4x9YJVGNbnTF3wDzXY2HqHDuXwbTqU6Fl_0KPCyeB0YOgI.sB8ydo0Cs80g1o2 y5m6qpq1mnzQIE1eTHBSDAuw95LIkC3.2oVuTmjg_MS5ZUK7fEK.SqpCfhuNpNNTVn4KPNX8rr5b 3p34e5I7DggvFlLqUgbK8SOryVhKawmw5ZuGxcwHiQNRGMShuMqQc2.ZmEADBpuvDeJ1uIo66Ufy atNey5qtkYxJ7eLKT56PvKujJsiPiwWQcrjLepcyXDM1I0Qg2L8JRHlqmrr_doO9SFodmRWg_WHc YuVW8AgQzmDiE_9lRh4iowBiEvo0NfV8Lgy_KNFVbAK1Xkt1Rjid5Sm2eOG_5zAgBtxWPYC8bdCd kNax10qGmovJtLnJ_rCQoF4_GGoJDe43XzALhYJyIddYexedHsdRM3aJ24Zzvj94wVh4OTEiyABX BeuIM2WF_fnPs.fzlnRJxRySJXUjiu0q3Y_8sYVr3YrfdgWxIkBrHFKoD0BFUHEsUHsso1WbpfhA UiFMTglAlMxecLY7ziL2fHlOxqLObMGEG0cMVJYntDq.2kj7h1IPuyAnpwJQ6gCf4QuebRCtMSHV COla4ivildP3Jov_ccOkI8w-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 19 May 2020 13:27:29 +0000 Received: by smtp414.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f37e4a8f23d42c100fa55220984814d7; Tue, 19 May 2020 13:27:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: O2 sensor location To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <97d90b5b-a805-be7e-b87d-8ec9aabc0a06@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 09:27:21 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------99CCFB14D213B57F87244FBC" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15960 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Content-Length: 28391 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------99CCFB14D213B57F87244FBC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Lynn. That puts things in perspective. Come to think about it, that 1950°F could have been with a failing EGT probe. I see that my engine monitor alarm is set at 1800°F and was set at 1750°F when I  got it. Do you happen to have any data from multiple EGT probe locations? I still would like to know how rapidly temps drop off as the distance increases from the port. Here's some data from the LSU 4.9 wide band O2 sensor data sheet: *Operating temperatures* Exhaust gas <= 930 °C Hexagon on sensor housing <= 600 °C Cable outlet (PTFE molded hose) - Sensor side (PTFE protective sleeve) <= 250 °C Cable outlet (PTFE molded hose) - Cable side (upper hose sleeve) <= 200 °C Cable and protective hose <= 250 °C Connector <= 120 °C *Maximum temperatures (max. 250 h cumulative over service life)* Exhaust gas <= 1030 °C Hexagon on sensor housing <= 680 °C So brief excursions to 1,900°F should be OK. I may just install the LSU 4.9 in the current bung location and keep an eye on EGTs. Finn On 5/18/2020 7:59 PM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: > With EGTs close to 2,000 degrees, when 1650 would be a bit high in my > book.......apex seals will be fighting over who gets to peel off the > chrome first.  The ideal mixture for best power in piston or rotary > also produces > (and is evidence of) close to the highest EGT. So a bit richer or a > bit leaner than ideal is the order of the day. > > She was runnin best ever just before the piston melted. > > Mr Drummond had us mount the EGT probes 3" from the port face on the > outside of any bend with the probe tip in the center of the tube. And > even then looking for 1650 degrees or less. The rotary has an unburned > hydrocarbon problem from the cold combustion chamber. So, a bit more > ignition advance can get more of the burn completed before the port > opens. 23 to 24 degrees on pump gas, maybe 24 to 27 degrees on avgas > or racing gas. High octane fuel is not required unless boosting is used. > > This information might also be worth what you paid for it. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 5/18/2020 5:12:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Sorry; I should have included a message with that link. I suspect > that with a little digging, a model could be located that would > allow modification to emulate what Steve's device does. Of course, > if someone (Tracy) has a metal lathe... > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:05 PM Charlie England > ceengland7@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > https://www.google.com/search?q=o2+sensor+bung+extension&oq=o2+sensor+bung+extension&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65.7765j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:43 PM Finn Lassen > finn.lassen@verizon.net > > wrote: > > Thanks Steve. > > Hadn't seen that before. > > Work of art! > > But, dang, $89 (or $58  on eBay). Could buy a couple new > O2 sensors at that price. > > Finn > > > On 5/18/2020 12:31 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu > wrote: > > Finn, > > FWIW, I've used the bung extender shown in the photos > on my test stand without ill effects other than > initial cost. > > Steve Boese > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > on behalf of Finn > Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net > > > > *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2020 7:55 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] O2 sensor location > > ◆ This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. > Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening > attachments from external sources. > > > So I bought the Bosch LSU 4.9 wideband oxygen sensor > and ALM-board. > > Specs for the LSU 4.9 says max operating temperature > is 930 °C (1700°F). > > I recall seeing 1950F EGT temps on my 13B with EGT > probes 8" from the > side of the engine. > > On the RV-4 Renesis,  before buying the wideband > sensor, I welded the > bung 12" from the closest port. (Stock manifold cut > and 180° turn at > exhaust port nearest flywheel, 2.5" pipe.) > > I expect the Renesis to have slightly lower EGT temps, > but am worrying > about damaging the O2 sensor. > > Charlie suggests mounting the sensor on a longer bung, > moving the sensor > out of the direct gas stream, but I feel that may > reduce the accuracy of it. > > My plan was to use the cheap narrowband O2 sensor > initially and find the > engine settings giving highest EGTs, then temporarily > mount an EGT probe > in the O2 bung hole, run the engine at those settings > and see if EGT > there was safe for the wideband sensor. > > But maybe I'm worrying about nothing. > > Do any of you have data on how rapidly the temps drop > as a function of > distance from exhaust port? > > Finn > > > > -- > Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > --------------99CCFB14D213B57F87244FBC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks Lynn.

That puts things in perspective.

Come to think about it, that 1950°F could have been with a failing EGT probe.

I see that my engine monitor alarm is set at 1800°F and was set at 1750°F when I  got it.

Do you happen to have any data from multiple EGT probe locations? I still would like to know how rapidly temps drop off as the distance increases from the port.

Here's some data from the LSU 4.9 wide band O2 sensor data sheet:
Operating temperatures
Exhaust gas <= 930 °C
Hexagon on sensor housing <= 600 °C
Cable outlet (PTFE molded hose) - Sensor side (PTFE protective sleeve) <= 250 °C
Cable outlet (PTFE molded hose) - Cable side (upper hose sleeve) <= 200 °C
Cable and protective hose <= 250 °C
Connector <= 120 °C
Maximum temperatures (max. 250 h cumulative over service life)
Exhaust gas <= 1030 °C
Hexagon on sensor housing <= 680 °C

So brief excursions to 1,900°F should be OK.

I may just install the LSU 4.9 in the current bung location and keep an eye on EGTs.

Finn

On 5/18/2020 7:59 PM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote:
With EGTs close to 2,000 degrees, when 1650 would be a bit high in my book.......apex seals will be fighting over who gets to peel off the chrome first.  The ideal mixture for best power in piston or rotary also produces
(and is evidence of) close to the highest EGT. So a bit richer or a bit leaner than ideal is the order of the day.

She was runnin best ever just before the piston melted.

Mr Drummond had us mount the EGT probes 3" from the port face on the outside of any bend with the probe tip in the center of the tube. And even then looking for 1650 degrees or less. The rotary has an unburned hydrocarbon problem from the cold combustion chamber. So, a bit more ignition advance can get more of the burn completed before the port opens. 23 to 24 degrees on pump gas, maybe 24 to 27 degrees on avgas or racing gas. High octane fuel is not required unless boosting is used. 

This information might also be worth what you paid for it.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 5/18/2020 5:12:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Sorry; I should have included a message with that link. I suspect that with a little digging, a model could be located that would allow modification to emulate what Steve's device does. Of course, if someone (Tracy) has a metal lathe...

Charlie

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:05 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:43 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Steve.

Hadn't seen that before.

Work of art!

But, dang, $89 (or $58  on eBay). Could buy a couple new O2 sensors at that price.

Finn


On 5/18/2020 12:31 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu wrote:
Finn,

FWIW, I've used the bung extender shown in the photos on my test stand without ill effects other than initial cost.

Steve Boese

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 7:55 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] O2 sensor location

◆ This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.


So I bought the Bosch LSU 4.9 wideband oxygen sensor and ALM-board.

Specs for the LSU 4.9 says max operating temperature is 930 °C (1700°F).

I recall seeing 1950F EGT temps on my 13B with EGT probes 8" from the
side of the engine.

On the RV-4 Renesis,  before buying the wideband sensor, I welded the
bung 12" from the closest port. (Stock manifold cut and 180° turn at
exhaust port nearest flywheel, 2.5" pipe.)

I expect the Renesis to have slightly lower EGT temps, but am worrying
about damaging the O2 sensor.

Charlie suggests mounting the sensor on a longer bung, moving the sensor
out of the direct gas stream, but I feel that may reduce the accuracy of it.

My plan was to use the cheap narrowband O2 sensor initially and find the
engine settings giving highest EGTs, then temporarily mount an EGT probe
in the O2 bung hole, run the engine at those settings and see if EGT
there was safe for the wideband sensor.

But maybe I'm worrying about nothing.

Do any of you have data on how rapidly the temps drop as a function of
distance from exhaust port?

Finn



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